{"success":true,"count":8,"items":[{"videoId":"IIPKMixTMfE","chunkIndex":0,"totalChunks":8,"title":"Notion's lost years, near collapse during COVID, staying small to move fast, building horizontal — Part 1 of 8","thumbnail":"https://i.ytimg.com/vi/IIPKMixTMfE/maxresdefault.jpg","duration":4338,"uploader":"Lenny's Podcast","youtubeUrl":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IIPKMixTMfE","keywords":["startup","founder-story","product-design","productivity","software","philosophy","innovation","horizontal-product","user-experience"],"normalizedKeywords":["비즈니스·전략","프로덕트","커리어·성장"],"targetAudience":[{"who":"초기 창업자","why":"제품 방향을 찾기 위한 시행착오와 포지셔닝 전환을 배울 수 있음"},{"who":"프로덕트 매니저","why":"사용자가 실제로 원하는 형태로 가치를 포장하는 사고를 얻을 수 있음"},{"who":"엔지니어","why":"기술로 무엇을 만들지보다 사용자 맥락을 이해하는 관점을 배울 수 있음"}],"normalizedAudience":["창업자·스타트업","프로덕트 매니저·기획자","엔지니어·개발자"],"summary":"이 영상은 Notion이 초기에 겪은 긴 시행착오와, Ivan Zhao가 어떤 문제의식을 바탕으로 제품 방향을 바꿔갔는지를 다룬다. 처음에는 누구나 소프트웨어를 만들 수 있게 하는 개발자 도구를 시도했지만 시장 반응이 약했고, 결국 사람들이 매일 쓰는 생산성 도구라는 형태로 비전을 숨겨 전달하는 쪽으로 전환했다. 핵심 메시지는 좋은 제품은 '내가 만들고 싶은 것'과 '사용자가 실제로 원하는 것' 사이의 균형 위에 서며, 도구는 단순한 기능이 아니라 인간의 사고와 행동까지 바꿀 수 있다는 점이다.\n\n또한 Ivan의 성장 배경, 프로그래밍을 배우게 된 계기, 그리고 컴퓨팅의 역사에서 받은 영감이 함께 소개된다. 특히 Douglas Engelbart와 Xerox Alto, Smalltalk 같은 사례를 통해 '사용자와 제작자의 경계가 낮을수록 더 강력한 도구가 나온다'는 철학이 강조된다. 전체적으로 이 파트는 Notion의 제품 철학이 어디서 왔는지, 왜 초반에 오래 헤맸는지를 이해하게 해주는 도입부다.","insights":["좋은 제품은 비전을 숨기고 사용성으로 먼저 설득한다.","초기 실패는 대개 시장이 아니라 포장 방식의 문제다.","도구는 인간을 돕는 동시에 인간의 방식까지 바꾼다.","창업자는 자기 취향과 사용자 수요 사이를 계속 조율해야 한다.","제품의 본질은 기능이 아니라 사람들이 매일 쓰는 맥락이다."],"keyClips":[{"clipId":"IIPKMixTMfE:c0:1-1","startSegmentIndex":1,"endSegmentIndex":1,"startTime":1.99,"endTime":147.959,"durationSeconds":146,"preview":"브로콜리와 설탕","mustSee":true},{"clipId":"IIPKMixTMfE:c0:3-3","startSegmentIndex":3,"endSegmentIndex":3,"startTime":218.72,"endTime":225.56,"durationSeconds":6.8,"preview":"커리어의 출발점","mustSee":false}],"curatedSegments":[{"segmentIndex":1,"text":"the way you describe the early years of notion you describe the first three to four years as the last years we try many different version the first version they everybody can make and create their software so let's just build a developer tool that's so easy that more people can do that we try that like couple years and learn that actually most people just don't care the our realization is actually let's hide our vision which is everybody can create their software in the form factor that people do care so what kind of tool do people use every day productiv software it took us two years to realize we need to build a productivity tool we call the sugar called the broccoli people don't want to eat the broccoli but people like sugar so give them the sugar that highy your brocc inside of it what other elements do you think are key to you finding something that actually ended up working what is the building a product or business you want user you want Revenue that's a product business and building for something you want the world to have is building for your value you have some taste you have some aesthetic there are different energy you need to create a balance too much of yourself then there's no user you're just doing art project and too much for a business you're building a commodity the way you think about notion it's almost like a philosophy of how to work and be versus just a productivity tool and so I'm just curious how you think about the relationship between tools and human potential tools are extensions of us and once they extend us once we shape them once we bring them to World they can come back to shape us today my guest is Ivan Jiao Ivan is the co-founder and CEO of notion Ivan is a really unique and also a deeply philosophical founder who doesn't do a lot of podcasts so I'm really excited to share a glimpse into how he built one of the most beloved and most popular products in the world we talk about the first 3 to four years of notion that he describes as the Lost Years how he was able to get into a great School in China by winning a programming contest the joy and suffering of building a successful horizontal product plus his approach to staying lean and craft and making trade-offs and also leadership also a wild story about how notion almost died during Co because the one database that everything lived in almost ran out of space if you enjoy this podcast don't forget to subscribe and follow it in your favorite podcasting app or YouTube also if you become a paid annual subscriber of my newsletter you now get a year free of notion Pro and perplexity Pro and superhuman and linear and granola check it out at Lenny newsletter.","startTime":1.99,"endTime":147.959,"durationSeconds":146,"level":"C1","overallScore":9,"rationale":"창업 철학·비유·교훈과 표현이 매우 풍부."},{"segmentIndex":3,"text":"com Lenny and 10x your experiment velocity that's get eo. com Lenny Ivan thank you so much for being here and welcome to the podcast thank you for having me I know you don't do a lot of podcasts and so I'm very honored that you're here I want to start with the story of Ivan your background is quite unique for a founder of a 10 Billion Dollar Plus tech company and I don't think a lot of people know it for example you grew up in a small town in China and the way you got out of there the way you got into Tech is pretty interesting can you just walk us through that early years of Ivan and how you got out of there I think a small town in China the definition it's actually a four million people City so the city is called uruki is in the Northwest desert part of China so I grew up there and um then I moved into my mom took me to um Beijing the capital of China and um that's actually how I got into programming coding because I'm from somewhere else and in order to go into good school in the capital you need to win some kind of competition and there's different path you can get at math and there or you can get at programming like information Olympia um I was really into computer games at the time so of course I picked the programming one so I can play with computers all day long and I win some competition uh and got me into a good school so that's how I got into programming um later then I moved to Canada and when I moved to Canada got into college did not study computer science since I already know how to c um play a lot of video games did a lot of art actually Art and Science um by the time I graduated college I realized most my friends are artists they need to make their websites get web portfolio made and I'm the only nerd in my art friend Circle so I made three or four websites I realized oh actually people don't know how to create with a software media Computing medium so that got me to want to create a product like notion today which is a lot more people to create tools create software for their DayDay work and life okay so going back to uh you to get into a great school and to kind of leave this small town not so small you had to uh enter a programming contest and you uh you placed first or second or how well did you actually do in the second in Beijing so in Beijing okay pretty big V is a big city so okay incredible another stat I uh or story I heard is that you learned English by watching SpongeBob SquarePants Is that real yeah it's real um I moved to Canada pretty late uh 16 years old and what I learned is yeah in China you can learn English but it's typical just grammar and doing exams what you're missing is the context the culture so you have to watch SpongeBob or Simpsons to get a sense of humor essentially you can't understand jokes right uh watching cartoon it's probably the easiest way to do that that's amazing um and there's another kind of seminal moment in your path I don't know if it was this point or later but the dungl Englebert paper uh ended up being a very meaningful moment for you so w was in Canada in last year of school working on trying to building website from our friends and uh building a creative tool for them and then you just look into the history of creative tool for software for computing um eventually arrive at 1960 and70s so you realize the first generation of computing Pioneers which is around San Francisco Stanford area South Bay they actually had the best ideas for this them people like dogas angle bar alen k 10 Nelson the first generation Pioneers for them Computing there shouldn't be a separation between Builders and users it's the same media angle Bar's original paper called augmenting human intellect when I read that paper it's like holy if you making software if you know how to codor design this is the highest leverage thing you can do for other people it's so given them the ability to use Computing to augment their problem solving ability or their intellect uh that just got me obsessed with this problem and I want to start a company like noit makes me think of Steve jobs' famous line of how the computer is a bicycle for the mind you know what Steve Jobs is actually at fault of this in some strange ways so the story is like actually the fact it's not just story um Xerox park has working on the first generation personal computer it's called Xerox Alto alen K was one of the main person behind it alutto runs down the system called Small Talk which is there's no separation between users and users app there's no thing called application everything is malleable you can change the tools right so when Steve Job the famous story is when he went to Zer zerox part to in demo with Al he does not it's the first time he see graphic user interface one of the first time and it's also they present him with this Alto system that everything could change but he did not see the power of it even when um","startTime":218.72,"endTime":225.56,"durationSeconds":7,"level":"C1","overallScore":9,"rationale":"개인 서사와 철학적 통찰, 유용 표현이 많음."},{"segmentIndex":33,"text":"You kind of have to hide your vision behind something that people understand and know how to use, and we call it sugar-coated broccoli.","startTime":821.48,"endTime":829.12,"durationSeconds":8,"level":"B2","overallScore":9,"rationale":"제품 포지셔닝 원리를 비유로 선명하게 제시."},{"segmentIndex":32,"text":"I think the more interesting point here, it's like you can create progress through better abstractions, and that thing compounds faster, can catch up to all the thing you build much quicker than you ever thought, right?","startTime":1382.72,"endTime":1393.919,"durationSeconds":11,"level":"C1","overallScore":8.8,"rationale":"추상화와 복리식 진전을 통찰적으로 설명."},{"segmentIndex":47,"text":"Like Notion, we call Notion's Lego for software. We sort of got lost there for a year and a half, shipping something not according to our value, not according to my value. We sort of shipped non-Lego pieces into our product.","startTime":2763.079,"endTime":2766.92,"durationSeconds":4,"level":"C1","overallScore":8.8,"rationale":"가치 이탈의 실패를 생생히 고백함."},{"segmentIndex":50,"text":"Then if you're trying to optimize too much on this competition, revenue side of things, forced to introducing something entirely value... and then you... the system... it's like there's organ rejection with your employees, with your customers, right?","startTime":2783.96,"endTime":2802.359,"durationSeconds":18,"level":"C1","overallScore":8.8,"rationale":"가치 불일치의 부작용 비유가 강함."},{"segmentIndex":28,"text":"One of my favorite quotes, like, the... One of my favorite quotes is like the Marsh quotes:\"We shape our tools, thereafter our tools shape us.\"Um, I think this is probably too philosophical for building product or business, but there is a sense thinking like what are you bringing to the world that will come back to bite you or shape you?","startTime":3809.279,"endTime":3817.2,"durationSeconds":8,"level":"C1","overallScore":9,"rationale":"인용과 질문이 모두 강한 통찰 제공."},{"segmentIndex":79,"text":"I think it would be a very interesting way for product makers, business makers, to solve the problem in front of them by stealing outside of it from the domain of tech and business. Um, it's about how different things from different domains inspire other domains, and usually he uses 30 minutes or 60 minutes to chain together a bunch of connection of stories.","startTime":4170,"endTime":4182.759,"durationSeconds":13,"level":"C1","overallScore":8.8,"rationale":"분야 밖 아이디어 차용법을 설명해 통찰적."},{"segmentIndex":20,"text":"The majority of people, they wake up, they have report due, they need to get their job done. They don't care creating software to optimize whatever they're doing.","startTime":726.88,"endTime":731.639,"durationSeconds":5,"level":"B2","overallScore":8,"rationale":"대중의 실제 니즈를 생생히 일반화함."},{"segmentIndex":28,"text":"Took us two years to realize when to build a productivity tool. So actually the world is not like you. The world are not like developer, designer-minded. The world is they only care what's in front of them, and that's so noisy.","startTime":784.68,"endTime":794.92,"durationSeconds":10,"level":"B2","overallScore":8,"rationale":"사용자 관점 전환을 강하게 일반화함."},{"segmentIndex":30,"text":"Very much so, because like sense of maturation is you don't see the world just from your perspective but from outside your perspective, right?","startTime":803.24,"endTime":812,"durationSeconds":9,"level":"B2","overallScore":8,"rationale":"성숙을 관점 확장으로 정의한 통찰."},{"segmentIndex":34,"text":"People don't want to eat the broccoli, but people like sugar, so give them the sugar, uh, inside of it. Wow.","startTime":829.12,"endTime":836.48,"durationSeconds":7,"level":"B1","overallScore":7.8,"rationale":"비유를 통해 수용성 원리를 쉽게 설명함."},{"segmentIndex":41,"text":"But in the middle of a realize, we build on a wrong technical foundation. We build on a wrong technical foundation, and if we continue to build on the wrong ones, we're going to run out the money.","startTime":861.72,"endTime":865.399,"durationSeconds":4,"level":"B2","overallScore":8,"rationale":"기술 선택 실패의 치명성을 잘 보여줌."},{"segmentIndex":81,"text":"Because me and him working so well now, even back then, it's like you sort of know what you other people are thinking, and you can just cross through the problem space really quickly, the technical product space, design space, um, and just non-stop of uh shipping stuff.","startTime":1115.84,"endTime":1135.2,"durationSeconds":19,"level":"C1","overallScore":8,"rationale":"협업 통찰이 크고 실무 구어도 풍부함."},{"segmentIndex":11,"text":"Looking in the thing we're building today and looking back, I find most proud of thing, like, I create something authentic to myself and happen to be also useful for others, and that just keeps you going.","startTime":1263.6,"endTime":1274.12,"durationSeconds":11,"level":"C1","overallScore":7.8,"rationale":"진정성과 지속 동력을 잘 설명함."},{"segmentIndex":17,"text":"So it's true, like, you're building too much for your own self and value without realizing at the end of the day if you're building a product and tool has to be used by others, you need to create a balance.","startTime":1304.559,"endTime":1315.48,"durationSeconds":11,"level":"C1","overallScore":8,"rationale":"자기표현과 사용자성의 균형 통찰."},{"segmentIndex":34,"text":"We're thinking in terms of linearly, and if you just reset and you find a better way to do it, you can get all the thing you have the S cost recovery really quickly.","startTime":1399.88,"endTime":1409.72,"durationSeconds":10,"level":"C1","overallScore":8,"rationale":"리셋의 회복 속도를 설득력 있게 설명."},{"segmentIndex":36,"text":"The kernel of things could be really small, but just like math it can compound.","startTime":1426.48,"endTime":1431.24,"durationSeconds":5,"level":"B2","overallScore":7.6,"rationale":"작은 커널의 복리 효과를 압축함."},{"segmentIndex":41,"text":"All these companies have been working on this for so long, and then they've cracked kind of an abstraction of how to think about scaling these systems, and now just people launch them and are immediately where the companies that have been working us for decades are today because they are building off these abstractions as you described in these.","startTime":1454.72,"endTime":1473.679,"durationSeconds":19,"level":"C1","overallScore":7.8,"rationale":"추상화가 산업 격차를 줄이는 설명."},{"segmentIndex":43,"text":"The point you also made about momentum, like, be afraid, be weary of momentum taking you in a direction and moving in a different, not being stuck to that direction, is exactly the way, uh, I think the Chain of Thought models now work actually, where generally LLMs are like next word.","startTime":1478.48,"endTime":1495.799,"durationSeconds":17,"level":"C1","overallScore":8.2,"rationale":"모멘텀 경계와 AI를 연결한 통찰."}],"generatedAt":"2026-06-25T00:19:39.243Z","keyClipsTotalSec":1633},{"videoId":"IIPKMixTMfE","chunkIndex":1,"totalChunks":8,"title":"Notion's lost years, near collapse during COVID, staying small to move fast, building horizontal — Part 2 of 8","thumbnail":"https://i.ytimg.com/vi/IIPKMixTMfE/maxresdefault.jpg","duration":4338,"uploader":"Lenny's Podcast","youtubeUrl":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IIPKMixTMfE","keywords":["startup","founder-story","product-design","product-management","productivity","no-code","software","business","entrepreneurship","technology"],"normalizedKeywords":["비즈니스·전략","프로덕트","엔지니어링"],"targetAudience":[{"who":"초기 창업자","why":"제품이 안 풀릴 때 방향 전환과 버티는 법을 배울 수 있음"},{"who":"프로덕트 매니저","why":"사용자가 원하는 것과 창업자의 비전을 조정하는 관점을 얻을 수 있음"},{"who":"엔지니어","why":"기술 선택과 재구축 판단이 생존에 미치는 영향을 이해할 수 있음"},{"who":"지식노동자","why":"복잡한 도구를 사람들이 실제로 쓰게 만드는 원리를 배울 수 있음"}],"normalizedAudience":["창업자·스타트업","프로덕트 매니저·기획자","엔지니어·개발자"],"summary":"이 영상은 Notion의 초창기 3~4년이 왜 '잃어버린 시기'처럼 보였는지, 그리고 그 시간을 어떻게 버티며 결국 제품 방향을 찾았는지를 다룬다. 처음엔 개발자 친화적인 툴을 만들었지만 대부분의 사용자는 그런 복잡한 창작 도구에 관심이 없다는 걸 깨닫고, '사용자가 매일 쓰는 생산성 소프트웨어' 안에 개발자적 힘을 숨기는 방향으로 재설계했다. 이 과정에서 코드를 여러 번 버리고, 잘못된 기술 기반을 갈아엎고, 회사 인원까지 줄이는 극단적 선택을 했지만, 결국 사람들의 실제 니즈에 맞는 제품 철학을 정착시켰다.\n\n핵심 메시지는 두 가지다. 첫째, 창업자의 비전은 중요하지만 사용자가 이해하고 바로 쓸 수 있는 형태로 포장되지 않으면 실패한다. 둘째, 복잡한 제품을 만드는 일은 기술보다도 시장과 사용자의 습관을 이해하는 문제이며, 그걸 깨달을 때까지 오래 걸릴 수 있다. Notion의 사례는 '오래 걸리는 PMF'가 실패가 아니라 학습 과정일 수 있음을 보여준다.","insights":["좋은 비전도 사용자가 즉시 이해 못 하면 팔리지 않는다.","사람들은 창작 도구보다 당장 업무를 끝내는 도구를 원한다.","초기 제품은 창업자의 욕망이 아니라 사용자 문제에 맞춰야 한다.","잘못된 기술 기반은 빠른 확장보다 먼저 교체해야 한다.","복잡한 혁신은 '쉬운 포장' 없이는 대중화되지 않는다."],"keyClips":[{"clipId":"IIPKMixTMfE:c1:8-18","startSegmentIndex":8,"endSegmentIndex":18,"startTime":649.92,"endTime":720.48,"durationSeconds":70.6,"preview":"노션의 초창기 방황","mustSee":false},{"clipId":"IIPKMixTMfE:c1:19-34","startSegmentIndex":19,"endSegmentIndex":34,"startTime":720.48,"endTime":836.48,"durationSeconds":116,"preview":"사용자 언어로 숨기기","mustSee":true},{"clipId":"IIPKMixTMfE:c1:35-48","startSegmentIndex":35,"endSegmentIndex":48,"startTime":836.48,"endTime":910.44,"durationSeconds":74,"preview":"재구축의 생존 판단","mustSee":true},{"clipId":"IIPKMixTMfE:c1:49-61","startSegmentIndex":49,"endSegmentIndex":61,"startTime":910.44,"endTime":990.319,"durationSeconds":79.9,"preview":"버틴 이유는 욕망","mustSee":false},{"clipId":"IIPKMixTMfE:c1:71-81","startSegmentIndex":71,"endSegmentIndex":81,"startTime":1038.6,"endTime":1135.2,"durationSeconds":96.6,"preview":"리셋과 재집중","mustSee":false}],"curatedSegments":[{"segmentIndex":1,"text":"the way you describe the early years of notion you describe the first three to four years as the last years we try many different version the first version they everybody can make and create their software so let's just build a developer tool that's so easy that more people can do that we try that like couple years and learn that actually most people just don't care the our realization is actually let's hide our vision which is everybody can create their software in the form factor that people do care so what kind of tool do people use every day productiv software it took us two years to realize we need to build a productivity tool we call the sugar called the broccoli people don't want to eat the broccoli but people like sugar so give them the sugar that highy your brocc inside of it what other elements do you think are key to you finding something that actually ended up working what is the building a product or business you want user you want Revenue that's a product business and building for something you want the world to have is building for your value you have some taste you have some aesthetic there are different energy you need to create a balance too much of yourself then there's no user you're just doing art project and too much for a business you're building a commodity the way you think about notion it's almost like a philosophy of how to work and be versus just a productivity tool and so I'm just curious how you think about the relationship between tools and human potential tools are extensions of us and once they extend us once we shape them once we bring them to World they can come back to shape us today my guest is Ivan Jiao Ivan is the co-founder and CEO of notion Ivan is a really unique and also a deeply philosophical founder who doesn't do a lot of podcasts so I'm really excited to share a glimpse into how he built one of the most beloved and most popular products in the world we talk about the first 3 to four years of notion that he describes as the Lost Years how he was able to get into a great School in China by winning a programming contest the joy and suffering of building a successful horizontal product plus his approach to staying lean and craft and making trade-offs and also leadership also a wild story about how notion almost died during Co because the one database that everything lived in almost ran out of space if you enjoy this podcast don't forget to subscribe and follow it in your favorite podcasting app or YouTube also if you become a paid annual subscriber of my newsletter you now get a year free of notion Pro and perplexity Pro and superhuman and linear and granola check it out at Lenny newsletter.","startTime":1.99,"endTime":147.959,"durationSeconds":146,"level":"C1","overallScore":9,"rationale":"창업 철학·비유·교훈과 표현이 매우 풍부."},{"segmentIndex":3,"text":"com Lenny and 10x your experiment velocity that's get eo. com Lenny Ivan thank you so much for being here and welcome to the podcast thank you for having me I know you don't do a lot of podcasts and so I'm very honored that you're here I want to start with the story of Ivan your background is quite unique for a founder of a 10 Billion Dollar Plus tech company and I don't think a lot of people know it for example you grew up in a small town in China and the way you got out of there the way you got into Tech is pretty interesting can you just walk us through that early years of Ivan and how you got out of there I think a small town in China the definition it's actually a four million people City so the city is called uruki is in the Northwest desert part of China so I grew up there and um then I moved into my mom took me to um Beijing the capital of China and um that's actually how I got into programming coding because I'm from somewhere else and in order to go into good school in the capital you need to win some kind of competition and there's different path you can get at math and there or you can get at programming like information Olympia um I was really into computer games at the time so of course I picked the programming one so I can play with computers all day long and I win some competition uh and got me into a good school so that's how I got into programming um later then I moved to Canada and when I moved to Canada got into college did not study computer science since I already know how to c um play a lot of video games did a lot of art actually Art and Science um by the time I graduated college I realized most my friends are artists they need to make their websites get web portfolio made and I'm the only nerd in my art friend Circle so I made three or four websites I realized oh actually people don't know how to create with a software media Computing medium so that got me to want to create a product like notion today which is a lot more people to create tools create software for their DayDay work and life okay so going back to uh you to get into a great school and to kind of leave this small town not so small you had to uh enter a programming contest and you uh you placed first or second or how well did you actually do in the second in Beijing so in Beijing okay pretty big V is a big city so okay incredible another stat I uh or story I heard is that you learned English by watching SpongeBob SquarePants Is that real yeah it's real um I moved to Canada pretty late uh 16 years old and what I learned is yeah in China you can learn English but it's typical just grammar and doing exams what you're missing is the context the culture so you have to watch SpongeBob or Simpsons to get a sense of humor essentially you can't understand jokes right uh watching cartoon it's probably the easiest way to do that that's amazing um and there's another kind of seminal moment in your path I don't know if it was this point or later but the dungl Englebert paper uh ended up being a very meaningful moment for you so w was in Canada in last year of school working on trying to building website from our friends and uh building a creative tool for them and then you just look into the history of creative tool for software for computing um eventually arrive at 1960 and70s so you realize the first generation of computing Pioneers which is around San Francisco Stanford area South Bay they actually had the best ideas for this them people like dogas angle bar alen k 10 Nelson the first generation Pioneers for them Computing there shouldn't be a separation between Builders and users it's the same media angle Bar's original paper called augmenting human intellect when I read that paper it's like holy if you making software if you know how to codor design this is the highest leverage thing you can do for other people it's so given them the ability to use Computing to augment their problem solving ability or their intellect uh that just got me obsessed with this problem and I want to start a company like noit makes me think of Steve jobs' famous line of how the computer is a bicycle for the mind you know what Steve Jobs is actually at fault of this in some strange ways so the story is like actually the fact it's not just story um Xerox park has working on the first generation personal computer it's called Xerox Alto alen K was one of the main person behind it alutto runs down the system called Small Talk which is there's no separation between users and users app there's no thing called application everything is malleable you can change the tools right so when Steve Job the famous story is when he went to Zer zerox part to in demo with Al he does not it's the first time he see graphic user interface one of the first time and it's also they present him with this Alto system that everything could change but he did not see the power of it even when um","startTime":218.72,"endTime":225.56,"durationSeconds":7,"level":"C1","overallScore":9,"rationale":"개인 서사와 철학적 통찰, 유용 표현이 많음."},{"segmentIndex":33,"text":"You kind of have to hide your vision behind something that people understand and know how to use, and we call it sugar-coated broccoli.","startTime":821.48,"endTime":829.12,"durationSeconds":8,"level":"B2","overallScore":9,"rationale":"제품 포지셔닝 원리를 비유로 선명하게 제시."},{"segmentIndex":32,"text":"I think the more interesting point here, it's like you can create progress through better abstractions, and that thing compounds faster, can catch up to all the thing you build much quicker than you ever thought, right?","startTime":1382.72,"endTime":1393.919,"durationSeconds":11,"level":"C1","overallScore":8.8,"rationale":"추상화와 복리식 진전을 통찰적으로 설명."},{"segmentIndex":47,"text":"Like Notion, we call Notion's Lego for software. We sort of got lost there for a year and a half, shipping something not according to our value, not according to my value. We sort of shipped non-Lego pieces into our product.","startTime":2763.079,"endTime":2766.92,"durationSeconds":4,"level":"C1","overallScore":8.8,"rationale":"가치 이탈의 실패를 생생히 고백함."},{"segmentIndex":50,"text":"Then if you're trying to optimize too much on this competition, revenue side of things, forced to introducing something entirely value... and then you... the system... it's like there's organ rejection with your employees, with your customers, right?","startTime":2783.96,"endTime":2802.359,"durationSeconds":18,"level":"C1","overallScore":8.8,"rationale":"가치 불일치의 부작용 비유가 강함."},{"segmentIndex":28,"text":"One of my favorite quotes, like, the... One of my favorite quotes is like the Marsh quotes:\"We shape our tools, thereafter our tools shape us.\"Um, I think this is probably too philosophical for building product or business, but there is a sense thinking like what are you bringing to the world that will come back to bite you or shape you?","startTime":3809.279,"endTime":3817.2,"durationSeconds":8,"level":"C1","overallScore":9,"rationale":"인용과 질문이 모두 강한 통찰 제공."},{"segmentIndex":79,"text":"I think it would be a very interesting way for product makers, business makers, to solve the problem in front of them by stealing outside of it from the domain of tech and business. Um, it's about how different things from different domains inspire other domains, and usually he uses 30 minutes or 60 minutes to chain together a bunch of connection of stories.","startTime":4170,"endTime":4182.759,"durationSeconds":13,"level":"C1","overallScore":8.8,"rationale":"분야 밖 아이디어 차용법을 설명해 통찰적."},{"segmentIndex":20,"text":"The majority of people, they wake up, they have report due, they need to get their job done. They don't care creating software to optimize whatever they're doing.","startTime":726.88,"endTime":731.639,"durationSeconds":5,"level":"B2","overallScore":8,"rationale":"대중의 실제 니즈를 생생히 일반화함."},{"segmentIndex":28,"text":"Took us two years to realize when to build a productivity tool. So actually the world is not like you. The world are not like developer, designer-minded. The world is they only care what's in front of them, and that's so noisy.","startTime":784.68,"endTime":794.92,"durationSeconds":10,"level":"B2","overallScore":8,"rationale":"사용자 관점 전환을 강하게 일반화함."},{"segmentIndex":30,"text":"Very much so, because like sense of maturation is you don't see the world just from your perspective but from outside your perspective, right?","startTime":803.24,"endTime":812,"durationSeconds":9,"level":"B2","overallScore":8,"rationale":"성숙을 관점 확장으로 정의한 통찰."},{"segmentIndex":34,"text":"People don't want to eat the broccoli, but people like sugar, so give them the sugar, uh, inside of it. Wow.","startTime":829.12,"endTime":836.48,"durationSeconds":7,"level":"B1","overallScore":7.8,"rationale":"비유를 통해 수용성 원리를 쉽게 설명함."},{"segmentIndex":41,"text":"But in the middle of a realize, we build on a wrong technical foundation. We build on a wrong technical foundation, and if we continue to build on the wrong ones, we're going to run out the money.","startTime":861.72,"endTime":865.399,"durationSeconds":4,"level":"B2","overallScore":8,"rationale":"기술 선택 실패의 치명성을 잘 보여줌."},{"segmentIndex":81,"text":"Because me and him working so well now, even back then, it's like you sort of know what you other people are thinking, and you can just cross through the problem space really quickly, the technical product space, design space, um, and just non-stop of uh shipping stuff.","startTime":1115.84,"endTime":1135.2,"durationSeconds":19,"level":"C1","overallScore":8,"rationale":"협업 통찰이 크고 실무 구어도 풍부함."},{"segmentIndex":11,"text":"Looking in the thing we're building today and looking back, I find most proud of thing, like, I create something authentic to myself and happen to be also useful for others, and that just keeps you going.","startTime":1263.6,"endTime":1274.12,"durationSeconds":11,"level":"C1","overallScore":7.8,"rationale":"진정성과 지속 동력을 잘 설명함."},{"segmentIndex":17,"text":"So it's true, like, you're building too much for your own self and value without realizing at the end of the day if you're building a product and tool has to be used by others, you need to create a balance.","startTime":1304.559,"endTime":1315.48,"durationSeconds":11,"level":"C1","overallScore":8,"rationale":"자기표현과 사용자성의 균형 통찰."},{"segmentIndex":34,"text":"We're thinking in terms of linearly, and if you just reset and you find a better way to do it, you can get all the thing you have the S cost recovery really quickly.","startTime":1399.88,"endTime":1409.72,"durationSeconds":10,"level":"C1","overallScore":8,"rationale":"리셋의 회복 속도를 설득력 있게 설명."},{"segmentIndex":36,"text":"The kernel of things could be really small, but just like math it can compound.","startTime":1426.48,"endTime":1431.24,"durationSeconds":5,"level":"B2","overallScore":7.6,"rationale":"작은 커널의 복리 효과를 압축함."},{"segmentIndex":41,"text":"All these companies have been working on this for so long, and then they've cracked kind of an abstraction of how to think about scaling these systems, and now just people launch them and are immediately where the companies that have been working us for decades are today because they are building off these abstractions as you described in these.","startTime":1454.72,"endTime":1473.679,"durationSeconds":19,"level":"C1","overallScore":7.8,"rationale":"추상화가 산업 격차를 줄이는 설명."},{"segmentIndex":43,"text":"The point you also made about momentum, like, be afraid, be weary of momentum taking you in a direction and moving in a different, not being stuck to that direction, is exactly the way, uh, I think the Chain of Thought models now work actually, where generally LLMs are like next word.","startTime":1478.48,"endTime":1495.799,"durationSeconds":17,"level":"C1","overallScore":8.2,"rationale":"모멘텀 경계와 AI를 연결한 통찰."}],"generatedAt":"2026-06-25T00:20:07.169Z","keyClipsTotalSec":1633},{"videoId":"IIPKMixTMfE","chunkIndex":2,"totalChunks":8,"title":"Notion's lost years, near collapse during COVID, staying small to move fast, building horizontal — Part 3 of 8","thumbnail":"https://i.ytimg.com/vi/IIPKMixTMfE/maxresdefault.jpg","duration":4338,"uploader":"Lenny's Podcast","youtubeUrl":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IIPKMixTMfE","keywords":["startup","product-market-fit","founder-story","business","product-strategy","abstraction","ai","venture-capital","resilience"],"normalizedKeywords":["프로덕트","비즈니스·전략","기술 트렌드"],"targetAudience":[{"who":"초기 창업자","why":"제품과 시장 사이의 균형, 재설계, 인내의 감각을 배울 수 있음"},{"who":"프로덕트 매니저","why":"사용자 가치와 사업 논리를 함께 맞추는 사고를 참고할 수 있음"},{"who":"투자자","why":"PMF가 외부 신호로 어떻게 드러나는지 감각을 얻을 수 있음"},{"who":"지식노동자","why":"막혔을 때 다시 시작하고 더 나은 추상화로 개선하는 태도가 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균형","mustSee":false},{"clipId":"IIPKMixTMfE:c2:22-45","startSegmentIndex":22,"endSegmentIndex":45,"startTime":1337.919,"endTime":1506.799,"durationSeconds":168.9,"preview":"리셋과 더 나은 추상화","mustSee":true},{"clipId":"IIPKMixTMfE:c2:46-71","startSegmentIndex":46,"endSegmentIndex":71,"startTime":1506.799,"endTime":1723.88,"durationSeconds":217.1,"preview":"PMF는 서서히 온다","mustSee":true}],"curatedSegments":[{"segmentIndex":1,"text":"the way you describe the early years of notion you describe the first three to four years as the last years we try many different version the first version they everybody can make and create their software so let's just build a developer tool that's so easy that more people can do that we try that like couple years and learn that actually most people just don't care the our realization is actually let's hide our vision which is everybody can create their software in the form factor that people do care so what kind of tool do people use every day productiv software it took us two years to realize we need to build a productivity tool we call the sugar called the broccoli people don't want to eat the broccoli but people like sugar so give them the sugar that highy your brocc inside of it what other elements do you think are key to you finding something that actually ended up working what is the building a product or business you want user you want Revenue that's a product business and building for something you want the world to have is building for your value you have some taste you have some aesthetic there are different energy you need to create a balance too much of yourself then there's no user you're just doing art project and too much for a business you're building a commodity the way you think about notion it's almost like a philosophy of how to work and be versus just a productivity tool and so I'm just curious how you think about the relationship between tools and human potential tools are extensions of us and once they extend us once we shape them once we bring them to World they can come back to shape us today my guest is Ivan Jiao Ivan is the co-founder and CEO of notion Ivan is a really unique and also a deeply philosophical founder who doesn't do a lot of podcasts so I'm really excited to share a glimpse into how he built one of the most beloved and most popular products in the world we talk about the first 3 to four years of notion that he describes as the Lost Years how he was able to get into a great School in China by winning a programming contest the joy and suffering of building a successful horizontal product plus his approach to staying lean and craft and making trade-offs and also leadership also a wild story about how notion almost died during Co because the one database that everything lived in almost ran out of space if you enjoy this podcast don't forget to subscribe and follow it in your favorite podcasting app or YouTube also if you become a paid annual subscriber of my newsletter you now get a year free of notion Pro and perplexity Pro and superhuman and linear and granola check it out at Lenny newsletter.","startTime":1.99,"endTime":147.959,"durationSeconds":146,"level":"C1","overallScore":9,"rationale":"창업 철학·비유·교훈과 표현이 매우 풍부."},{"segmentIndex":3,"text":"com Lenny and 10x your experiment velocity that's get eo. com Lenny Ivan thank you so much for being here and welcome to the podcast thank you for having me I know you don't do a lot of podcasts and so I'm very honored that you're here I want to start with the story of Ivan your background is quite unique for a founder of a 10 Billion Dollar Plus tech company and I don't think a lot of people know it for example you grew up in a small town in China and the way you got out of there the way you got into Tech is pretty interesting can you just walk us through that early years of Ivan and how you got out of there I think a small town in China the definition it's actually a four million people City so the city is called uruki is in the Northwest desert part of China so I grew up there and um then I moved into my mom took me to um Beijing the capital of China and um that's actually how I got into programming coding because I'm from somewhere else and in order to go into good school in the capital you need to win some kind of competition and there's different path you can get at math and there or you can get at programming like information Olympia um I was really into computer games at the time so of course I picked the programming one so I can play with computers all day long and I win some competition uh and got me into a good school so that's how I got into programming um later then I moved to Canada and when I moved to Canada got into college did not study computer science since I already know how to c um play a lot of video games did a lot of art actually Art and Science um by the time I graduated college I realized most my friends are artists they need to make their websites get web portfolio made and I'm the only nerd in my art friend Circle so I made three or four websites I realized oh actually people don't know how to create with a software media Computing medium so that got me to want to create a product like notion today which is a lot more people to create tools create software for their DayDay work and life okay so going back to uh you to get into a great school and to kind of leave this small town not so small you had to uh enter a programming contest and you uh you placed first or second or how well did you actually do in the second in Beijing so in Beijing okay pretty big V is a big city so okay incredible another stat I uh or story I heard is that you learned English by watching SpongeBob SquarePants Is that real yeah it's real um I moved to Canada pretty late uh 16 years old and what I learned is yeah in China you can learn English but it's typical just grammar and doing exams what you're missing is the context the culture so you have to watch SpongeBob or Simpsons to get a sense of humor essentially you can't understand jokes right uh watching cartoon it's probably the easiest way to do that that's amazing um and there's another kind of seminal moment in your path I don't know if it was this point or later but the dungl Englebert paper uh ended up being a very meaningful moment for you so w was in Canada in last year of school working on trying to building website from our friends and uh building a creative tool for them and then you just look into the history of creative tool for software for computing um eventually arrive at 1960 and70s so you realize the first generation of computing Pioneers which is around San Francisco Stanford area South Bay they actually had the best ideas for this them people like dogas angle bar alen k 10 Nelson the first generation Pioneers for them Computing there shouldn't be a separation between Builders and users it's the same media angle Bar's original paper called augmenting human intellect when I read that paper it's like holy if you making software if you know how to codor design this is the highest leverage thing you can do for other people it's so given them the ability to use Computing to augment their problem solving ability or their intellect uh that just got me obsessed with this problem and I want to start a company like noit makes me think of Steve jobs' famous line of how the computer is a bicycle for the mind you know what Steve Jobs is actually at fault of this in some strange ways so the story is like actually the fact it's not just story um Xerox park has working on the first generation personal computer it's called Xerox Alto alen K was one of the main person behind it alutto runs down the system called Small Talk which is there's no separation between users and users app there's no thing called application everything is malleable you can change the tools right so when Steve Job the famous story is when he went to Zer zerox part to in demo with Al he does not it's the first time he see graphic user interface one of the first time and it's also they present him with this Alto system that everything could change but he did not see the power of it even when um","startTime":218.72,"endTime":225.56,"durationSeconds":7,"level":"C1","overallScore":9,"rationale":"개인 서사와 철학적 통찰, 유용 표현이 많음."},{"segmentIndex":33,"text":"You kind of have to hide your vision behind something that people understand and know how to use, and we call it sugar-coated broccoli.","startTime":821.48,"endTime":829.12,"durationSeconds":8,"level":"B2","overallScore":9,"rationale":"제품 포지셔닝 원리를 비유로 선명하게 제시."},{"segmentIndex":32,"text":"I think the more interesting point here, it's like you can create progress through better abstractions, and that thing compounds faster, can catch up to all the thing you build much quicker than you ever thought, right?","startTime":1382.72,"endTime":1393.919,"durationSeconds":11,"level":"C1","overallScore":8.8,"rationale":"추상화와 복리식 진전을 통찰적으로 설명."},{"segmentIndex":47,"text":"Like Notion, we call Notion's Lego for software. We sort of got lost there for a year and a half, shipping something not according to our value, not according to my value. We sort of shipped non-Lego pieces into our product.","startTime":2763.079,"endTime":2766.92,"durationSeconds":4,"level":"C1","overallScore":8.8,"rationale":"가치 이탈의 실패를 생생히 고백함."},{"segmentIndex":50,"text":"Then if you're trying to optimize too much on this competition, revenue side of things, forced to introducing something entirely value... and then you... the system... it's like there's organ rejection with your employees, with your customers, right?","startTime":2783.96,"endTime":2802.359,"durationSeconds":18,"level":"C1","overallScore":8.8,"rationale":"가치 불일치의 부작용 비유가 강함."},{"segmentIndex":28,"text":"One of my favorite quotes, like, the... 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a developer tool that's so easy that more people can do that we try that like couple years and learn that actually most people just don't care the our realization is actually let's hide our vision which is everybody can create their software in the form factor that people do care so what kind of tool do people use every day productiv software it took us two years to realize we need to build a productivity tool we call the sugar called the broccoli people don't want to eat the broccoli but people like sugar so give them the sugar that highy your brocc inside of it what other elements do you think are key to you finding something that actually ended up working what is the building a product or business you want user you want Revenue that's a product business and building for something you want the world to have is building for your value you have some taste you have some aesthetic there are different energy you need to create a balance too much of yourself then there's no user you're just doing art project and too much for a business you're building a commodity the way you think about notion it's almost like a philosophy of how to work and be versus just a productivity tool and so I'm just curious how you think about the relationship between tools and human potential tools are extensions of us and once they extend us once we shape them once we bring them to World they can come back to shape us today my guest is Ivan Jiao Ivan is the co-founder and CEO of notion Ivan is a really unique and also a deeply philosophical founder who doesn't do a lot of podcasts so I'm really excited to share a glimpse into how he built one of the most beloved and most popular products in the world we talk about the first 3 to four years of notion that he describes as the Lost Years how he was able to get into a great School in China by winning a programming contest the joy and suffering of building a successful horizontal product plus his approach to staying lean and craft and making trade-offs and also leadership also a wild story about how notion almost died during Co because the one database that everything lived in almost ran out of space if you enjoy this podcast don't forget to subscribe and follow it in your favorite podcasting app or YouTube also if you become a paid annual subscriber of my newsletter you now get a year free of notion Pro and perplexity Pro and superhuman and linear and granola check it out at Lenny newsletter.","startTime":1.99,"endTime":147.959,"durationSeconds":146,"level":"C1","overallScore":9,"rationale":"창업 철학·비유·교훈과 표현이 매우 풍부."},{"segmentIndex":3,"text":"com Lenny and 10x your experiment velocity that's get eo. com Lenny Ivan thank you so much for being here and welcome to the podcast thank you for having me I know you don't do a lot of podcasts and so I'm very honored that you're here I want to start with the story of Ivan your background is quite unique for a founder of a 10 Billion Dollar Plus tech company and I don't think a lot of people know it for example you grew up in a small town in China and the way you got out of there the way you got into Tech is pretty interesting can you just walk us through that early years of Ivan and how you got out of there I think a small town in China the definition it's actually a four million people City so the city is called uruki is in the Northwest desert part of China so I grew up there and um then I moved into my mom took me to um Beijing the capital of China and um that's actually how I got into programming coding because I'm from somewhere else and in order to go into good school in the capital you need to win some kind of competition and there's different path you can get at math and there or you can get at programming like information Olympia um I was really into computer games at the time so of course I picked the programming one so I can play with computers all day long and I win some competition uh and got me into a good school so that's how I got into 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or story I heard is that you learned English by watching SpongeBob SquarePants Is that real yeah it's real um I moved to Canada pretty late uh 16 years old and what I learned is yeah in China you can learn English but it's typical just grammar and doing exams what you're missing is the context the culture so you have to watch SpongeBob or Simpsons to get a sense of humor essentially you can't understand jokes right uh watching cartoon it's probably the easiest way to do that that's amazing um and there's another kind of seminal moment in your path I don't know if it was this point or later but the dungl Englebert paper uh ended up being a very meaningful moment for you so w was in Canada in last year of school working on trying to building website from our friends and uh building a creative tool for them and then you just look into the history of creative tool for software for computing um eventually arrive at 1960 and70s so you realize the first generation of computing Pioneers which 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compound.","startTime":1426.48,"endTime":1431.24,"durationSeconds":5,"level":"B2","overallScore":7.6,"rationale":"작은 커널의 복리 효과를 압축함."},{"segmentIndex":41,"text":"All these companies have been working on this for so long, and then they've cracked kind of an abstraction of how to think about scaling these systems, and now just people launch them and are immediately where the companies that have been working us for decades are today because they are building off these abstractions as you described in these.","startTime":1454.72,"endTime":1473.679,"durationSeconds":19,"level":"C1","overallScore":7.8,"rationale":"추상화가 산업 격차를 줄이는 설명."},{"segmentIndex":43,"text":"The point you also made about momentum, like, be afraid, be weary of momentum taking you in a direction and moving in a different, not being stuck to that direction, is exactly the way, uh, I think the Chain of Thought models now work actually, where generally LLMs are like next word.","startTime":1478.48,"endTime":1495.799,"durationSeconds":17,"level":"C1","overallScore":8.2,"rationale":"모멘텀 경계와 AI를 연결한 통찰."}],"generatedAt":"2026-06-25T00:20:55.305Z","keyClipsTotalSec":1633},{"videoId":"IIPKMixTMfE","chunkIndex":4,"totalChunks":8,"title":"Notion's lost years, near collapse during COVID, staying small to move fast, building horizontal — Part 5 of 8","thumbnail":"https://i.ytimg.com/vi/IIPKMixTMfE/maxresdefault.jpg","duration":4338,"uploader":"Lenny's Podcast","youtubeUrl":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IIPKMixTMfE","keywords":["leadership","startup","product","storytelling","positioning","business-strategy","organizational-culture","product-design","ai","trade-offs"],"normalizedKeywords":["리더십·매니지먼트","비즈니스·전략","프로덕트"],"targetAudience":[{"who":"창업자","why":"제품 철학을 지키면서도 성장에 맞게 조직과 메시지를 바꾸는 법을 배울 수 있음"},{"who":"프로덕트 매니저","why":"기능을 더하는 대신 제품의 원칙과 사용자 적합성을 점검하는 관점을 얻을 수 있음"},{"who":"리더","why":"성장하는 조직에서 커뮤니케이션과 방향 전환을 어떻게 해야 하는지 참고됨"}],"normalizedAudience":["창업자·스타트업","프로덕트 매니저·기획자"],"summary":"이 영상은 Notion의 공동창업자/리더가 제품과 회사를 키우며 배운 핵심 원리를 정리한다. 그는 새로운 기술은 새로운 형태의 제품과 trade-off를 가능하게 하지만, 결국 사람의 습관과 행동 제약까지 함께 고려해야 진짜 제품이 된다고 말한다. 또한 회사가 커질수록 1:1로 잘하던 제품 감각만으로는 부족하고, one-to-many로 설득하는 스토리텔링과 포지셔닝이 필수가 된다고 설명한다.\n\n가장 중요한 고백은 Notion이 한때 자신의 핵심 가치에서 벗어나 'non-Lego'식 기능을 넣으며 길을 잃었고, 그 결과 제품과 고객 사이에 불일치가 생겼다는 점이다. 프로젝트 관리 기능에서도 경쟁사처럼 하드코딩하는 대신, Notion다운 추상화와 조합성을 지키는 방향으로 돌아와야 했다고 말한다. 전체적으로 이 영상은 '성장'이 곧 기능 추가가 아니라, 제품의 원칙을 지키면서 조직·메시지·의사결정을 계속 재학습하는 과정이라는 메시지를 준다.","insights":["새 기술은 새 제품 가능성을 열지만, 사람 습관까지 바꿔야 성공한다.","회사가 커질수록 제품을 만드는 힘만큼 설득하는 힘이 중요해진다.","가치에서 벗어난 기능 추가는 고객과 조직의 거부반응을 만든다.","좋은 제품은 경쟁사 복제가 아니라 자기만의 추상화를 지켜야 한다.","리더의 일은 완성형이 아니라, 12~18개월마다 새 기술을 배우는 것이다."],"keyClips":[{"clipId":"IIPKMixTMfE:c4:1-6","startSegmentIndex":1,"endSegmentIndex":6,"startTime":2401.589,"endTime":2474.96,"durationSeconds":73.4,"preview":"기술과 제품의 균형","mustSee":false},{"clipId":"IIPKMixTMfE:c4:18-33","startSegmentIndex":18,"endSegmentIndex":33,"startTime":2541.4,"endTime":2657.839,"durationSeconds":116.4,"preview":"성장하는 리더의 학습","mustSee":false},{"clipId":"IIPKMixTMfE:c4:34-43","startSegmentIndex":34,"endSegmentIndex":43,"startTime":2657.839,"endTime":2715.119,"durationSeconds":57.3,"preview":"스토리와 진실의 균형","mustSee":false},{"clipId":"IIPKMixTMfE:c4:46-60","startSegmentIndex":46,"endSegmentIndex":60,"startTime":2736.48,"endTime":2863.24,"durationSeconds":126.8,"preview":"제품 원칙으로의 복귀","mustSee":true},{"clipId":"IIPKMixTMfE:c4:64-75","startSegmentIndex":64,"endSegmentIndex":75,"startTime":2878.24,"endTime":2959.04,"durationSeconds":80.8,"preview":"하드코딩의 함정","mustSee":false}],"curatedSegments":[{"segmentIndex":1,"text":"the way you describe the early years of notion you describe the first three to four years as the last years we try many different version the first version they everybody can make and create their software so let's just build a developer tool that's so easy that more people can do that we try that like couple years and learn that actually most people just don't care the our realization is actually let's hide our vision which is everybody can create their software in the form factor that people do care so what kind of tool do people use every day productiv software it took us two years to realize we need to build a productivity tool we call the sugar called the broccoli people don't want to eat the broccoli but people like sugar so give them the sugar that highy your brocc inside of it what other elements do you think are key to you finding something that actually ended up working what is the building a product or business you want user you want Revenue that's a product business and building for something you want the world to have is building for your value you have some taste you have some aesthetic there are different energy you need to create a balance too much of yourself then there's no user you're just doing art project and too much for a business you're building a commodity the way you think about notion it's almost like a philosophy of how to work and be versus just a productivity tool and so I'm just curious how you think about the relationship between tools and human potential tools are extensions of us and once they extend us once we shape them once we bring them to World they can come back to shape us today my guest is Ivan Jiao Ivan is the co-founder and CEO of notion Ivan is a really unique and also a deeply philosophical founder who doesn't do a lot of podcasts so I'm really excited to share a glimpse into how he built one of the most beloved and most popular products in the world we talk about the first 3 to four years of notion that he describes as the Lost Years how he was able to get into a great School in China by winning a programming contest the joy and suffering of building a successful horizontal product plus his approach to staying lean and craft and making trade-offs and also leadership also a wild story about how notion almost died during Co because the one database that everything lived in almost ran out of space if you enjoy this podcast don't forget to subscribe and follow it in your favorite podcasting app or YouTube also if you become a paid annual subscriber of my newsletter you now get a year free of notion Pro and perplexity Pro and superhuman and linear and granola check it out at Lenny newsletter.","startTime":1.99,"endTime":147.959,"durationSeconds":146,"level":"C1","overallScore":9,"rationale":"창업 철학·비유·교훈과 표현이 매우 풍부."},{"segmentIndex":3,"text":"com Lenny and 10x your experiment velocity that's get eo. com Lenny Ivan thank you so much for being here and welcome to the podcast thank you for having me I know you don't do a lot of podcasts and so I'm very honored that you're here I want to start with the story of Ivan your background is quite unique for a founder of a 10 Billion Dollar Plus tech company and I don't think a lot of people know it for example you grew up in a small town in China and the way you got out of there the way you got into Tech is pretty interesting can you just walk us through that early years of Ivan and how you got out of there I think a small town in China the definition it's actually a four million people City so the city is called uruki is in the Northwest desert part of China so I grew up there and um then I moved into my mom took me to um Beijing the capital of China and um that's actually how I got into programming coding because I'm from somewhere else and in order to go into good school in the capital you need to win some kind of competition and there's different path you can get at math and there or you can get at programming like information Olympia um I was really into computer games at the time so of course I picked the programming one so I can play with computers all day long and I win some competition uh and got me into a good school so that's how I got into 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or story I heard is that you learned English by watching SpongeBob SquarePants Is that real yeah it's real um I moved to Canada pretty late uh 16 years old and what I learned is yeah in China you can learn English but it's typical just grammar and doing exams what you're missing is the context the culture so you have to watch SpongeBob or Simpsons to get a sense of humor essentially you can't understand jokes right uh watching cartoon it's probably the easiest way to do that that's amazing um and there's another kind of seminal moment in your path I don't know if it was this point or later but the dungl Englebert paper uh ended up being a very meaningful moment for you so w was in Canada in last year of school working on trying to building website from our friends and uh building a creative tool for them and then you just look into the history of creative tool for software for computing um eventually arrive at 1960 and70s so you realize the first generation of computing Pioneers which 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was one of the main person behind it alutto runs down the system called Small Talk which is there's no separation between users and users app there's no thing called application everything is malleable you can change the tools right so when Steve Job the famous story is when he went to Zer zerox part to in demo with Al he does not it's the first time he see graphic user interface one of the first time and it's also they present him with this Alto system that everything could change but he did not see the power of it even when um","startTime":218.72,"endTime":225.56,"durationSeconds":7,"level":"C1","overallScore":9,"rationale":"개인 서사와 철학적 통찰, 유용 표현이 많음."},{"segmentIndex":33,"text":"You kind of have to hide your vision behind something that people understand and know how to use, and we call it sugar-coated broccoli.","startTime":821.48,"endTime":829.12,"durationSeconds":8,"level":"B2","overallScore":9,"rationale":"제품 포지셔닝 원리를 비유로 선명하게 제시."},{"segmentIndex":32,"text":"I think the more interesting point here, it's like you can create progress through better abstractions, and that thing compounds faster, can catch up to all the thing you build much quicker than you ever thought, right?","startTime":1382.72,"endTime":1393.919,"durationSeconds":11,"level":"C1","overallScore":8.8,"rationale":"추상화와 복리식 진전을 통찰적으로 설명."},{"segmentIndex":47,"text":"Like Notion, we call Notion's Lego for software. We sort of got lost there for a year and a half, shipping something not according to our value, not according to my value. We sort of shipped non-Lego pieces into our product.","startTime":2763.079,"endTime":2766.92,"durationSeconds":4,"level":"C1","overallScore":8.8,"rationale":"가치 이탈의 실패를 생생히 고백함."},{"segmentIndex":50,"text":"Then if you're trying to optimize too much on this competition, revenue side of things, forced to introducing something entirely value... and then you... the system... it's like there's organ rejection with your employees, with your customers, right?","startTime":2783.96,"endTime":2802.359,"durationSeconds":18,"level":"C1","overallScore":8.8,"rationale":"가치 불일치의 부작용 비유가 강함."},{"segmentIndex":28,"text":"One of my favorite quotes, like, the... One of my favorite quotes is like the Marsh quotes:\"We shape our tools, thereafter our tools shape us.\"Um, I think this is probably too philosophical for building product or business, but there is a sense thinking like what are you bringing to the world that will come back to bite you or shape you?","startTime":3809.279,"endTime":3817.2,"durationSeconds":8,"level":"C1","overallScore":9,"rationale":"인용과 질문이 모두 강한 통찰 제공."},{"segmentIndex":79,"text":"I think it would be a very interesting way for product makers, business makers, to solve the problem in front of them by stealing outside of it from the domain of tech and business. Um, it's about how different things from different domains inspire other domains, and usually he uses 30 minutes or 60 minutes to chain together a bunch of connection of stories.","startTime":4170,"endTime":4182.759,"durationSeconds":13,"level":"C1","overallScore":8.8,"rationale":"분야 밖 아이디어 차용법을 설명해 통찰적."},{"segmentIndex":20,"text":"The majority of people, they wake up, they have report due, they need to get their job done. They don't care creating software to optimize whatever they're doing.","startTime":726.88,"endTime":731.639,"durationSeconds":5,"level":"B2","overallScore":8,"rationale":"대중의 실제 니즈를 생생히 일반화함."},{"segmentIndex":28,"text":"Took us two years to realize when to build a productivity tool. So actually the world is not like you. The world are not like developer, designer-minded. The world is they only care what's in front of them, and that's so noisy.","startTime":784.68,"endTime":794.92,"durationSeconds":10,"level":"B2","overallScore":8,"rationale":"사용자 관점 전환을 강하게 일반화함."},{"segmentIndex":30,"text":"Very much so, because like sense of maturation is you don't see the world just from your perspective but from outside your perspective, right?","startTime":803.24,"endTime":812,"durationSeconds":9,"level":"B2","overallScore":8,"rationale":"성숙을 관점 확장으로 정의한 통찰."},{"segmentIndex":34,"text":"People don't want to eat the broccoli, but people like sugar, so give them the sugar, uh, inside of it. Wow.","startTime":829.12,"endTime":836.48,"durationSeconds":7,"level":"B1","overallScore":7.8,"rationale":"비유를 통해 수용성 원리를 쉽게 설명함."},{"segmentIndex":41,"text":"But in the middle of a realize, we build on a wrong technical foundation. We build on a wrong technical foundation, and if we continue to build on the wrong ones, we're going to run out the money.","startTime":861.72,"endTime":865.399,"durationSeconds":4,"level":"B2","overallScore":8,"rationale":"기술 선택 실패의 치명성을 잘 보여줌."},{"segmentIndex":81,"text":"Because me and him working so well now, even back then, it's like you sort of know what you other people are thinking, and you can just cross through the problem space really quickly, the technical product space, design space, um, and just non-stop of uh shipping stuff.","startTime":1115.84,"endTime":1135.2,"durationSeconds":19,"level":"C1","overallScore":8,"rationale":"협업 통찰이 크고 실무 구어도 풍부함."},{"segmentIndex":11,"text":"Looking in the thing we're building today and looking back, I find most proud of thing, like, I create something authentic to myself and happen to be also useful for others, and that just keeps you going.","startTime":1263.6,"endTime":1274.12,"durationSeconds":11,"level":"C1","overallScore":7.8,"rationale":"진정성과 지속 동력을 잘 설명함."},{"segmentIndex":17,"text":"So it's true, like, you're building too much for your own self and value without realizing at the end of the day if you're building a product and tool has to be used by others, you need to create a balance.","startTime":1304.559,"endTime":1315.48,"durationSeconds":11,"level":"C1","overallScore":8,"rationale":"자기표현과 사용자성의 균형 통찰."},{"segmentIndex":34,"text":"We're thinking in terms of linearly, and if you just reset and you find a better way to do it, you can get all the thing you have the S cost recovery really quickly.","startTime":1399.88,"endTime":1409.72,"durationSeconds":10,"level":"C1","overallScore":8,"rationale":"리셋의 회복 속도를 설득력 있게 설명."},{"segmentIndex":36,"text":"The kernel of things could be really small, but just like math it can compound.","startTime":1426.48,"endTime":1431.24,"durationSeconds":5,"level":"B2","overallScore":7.6,"rationale":"작은 커널의 복리 효과를 압축함."},{"segmentIndex":41,"text":"All these companies have been working on this for so long, and then they've cracked kind of an abstraction of how to think about scaling these systems, and now just people launch them and are immediately where the companies that have been working us for decades are today because they are building off these abstractions as you described in these.","startTime":1454.72,"endTime":1473.679,"durationSeconds":19,"level":"C1","overallScore":7.8,"rationale":"추상화가 산업 격차를 줄이는 설명."},{"segmentIndex":43,"text":"The point you also made about momentum, like, be afraid, be weary of momentum taking you in a direction and moving in a different, not being stuck to that direction, is exactly the way, uh, I think the Chain of Thought models now work actually, where generally LLMs are like next word.","startTime":1478.48,"endTime":1495.799,"durationSeconds":17,"level":"C1","overallScore":8.2,"rationale":"모멘텀 경계와 AI를 연결한 통찰."}],"generatedAt":"2026-06-25T00:21:29.301Z","keyClipsTotalSec":1633},{"videoId":"IIPKMixTMfE","chunkIndex":5,"totalChunks":8,"title":"Notion's lost years, near collapse during COVID, staying small to move fast, building horizontal — Part 6 of 8","thumbnail":"https://i.ytimg.com/vi/IIPKMixTMfE/maxresdefault.jpg","duration":4338,"uploader":"Lenny's Podcast","youtubeUrl":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IIPKMixTMfE","keywords":["startup","saas","product-strategy","horizontal-software","b2b","enterprise","database","ai","product-management","growth"],"normalizedKeywords":["비즈니스·전략","프로덕트","기술 트렌드"],"targetAudience":[{"who":"창업자","why":"수평형 제품의 초기 PMF, 세분화, GTM 전략을 배울 수 있음"},{"who":"프로덕트 매니저","why":"제품 포지셔닝과 사용자 세그먼트 설정의 관점을 얻을 수 있음"},{"who":"엔지니어","why":"확장성 문제와 제품 구조가 사업 전략과 맞물리는 방식을 이해할 수 있음"}],"normalizedAudience":["창업자·스타트업","프로덕트 매니저·기획자","엔지니어·개발자"],"summary":"이 영상은 Notion이 코로나 시기 직전 겪었던 데이터베이스 용량 위기와, 그 위기를 넘기는 과정에서 얻은 교훈을 출발점으로 삼아 수평형(horizontal) 소프트웨어를 만드는 어려움과 전략을 설명한다. 특히 '레고 브릭'과 '레고 박스' 비유를 통해, 제품 내부의 모듈성(브릭)을 유지하면서도 고객과 시장에는 명확한 솔루션(박스)으로 보이게 해야 한다는 점을 강조한다.\n\n또한 Notion이 문서/노트라는 대중적 사용 사례를 발판으로 B2C2B 성장을 만들고, 이후 캘린더·이메일·AI 같은 더 큰 묶음으로 확장하는 흐름을 보여준다. 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공식","mustSee":true},{"clipId":"IIPKMixTMfE:c5:54-64","startSegmentIndex":54,"endSegmentIndex":64,"startTime":3368.359,"endTime":3466.799,"durationSeconds":98.4,"preview":"첫 사용 사례의 선택","mustSee":true},{"clipId":"IIPKMixTMfE:c5:67-76","startSegmentIndex":67,"endSegmentIndex":76,"startTime":3481.96,"endTime":3560.24,"durationSeconds":78.3,"preview":"AI와 묶음의 힘","mustSee":false}],"curatedSegments":[{"segmentIndex":1,"text":"the way you describe the early years of notion you describe the first three to four years as the last years we try many different version the first version they everybody can make and create their software so let's just build a developer tool that's so easy that more people can do that we try that like couple years and learn that actually most people just don't care the our realization is actually let's hide our vision which is everybody can create their software in the form factor that people do care so what kind of tool do people use every day productiv software it took us two years to realize we need to build a productivity tool we call the sugar called the broccoli people don't want to eat the broccoli but people like sugar so give them the sugar that highy your brocc inside of it what other elements do you think are key to you finding something that actually ended up working what is the building a product or business you want user you want Revenue that's a product business and building for something you want the world to have is building for your value you have some taste you have some aesthetic there are different energy you need to create a balance too much of yourself then there's no user you're just doing art project and too much for a business you're building a commodity the way you think about notion it's almost like a philosophy of how to work and be versus just a productivity tool and so I'm just curious how you think about the relationship between tools and human potential tools are extensions of us and once they extend us once we shape them once we bring them to World they can come back to shape us today my guest is Ivan Jiao Ivan is the co-founder and CEO of notion Ivan is a really unique and also a deeply philosophical founder who doesn't do a lot of podcasts so I'm really excited to share a glimpse into how he built one of the most beloved and most popular products in the world we talk about the first 3 to four years of notion that he describes as the Lost Years how he was able to get into a great School in China by winning a programming contest the joy and suffering of building a successful horizontal product plus his approach to staying lean and craft and making trade-offs and also leadership also a wild story about how notion almost died during Co because the one database that everything lived in almost ran out of space if you enjoy this podcast don't forget to subscribe and follow it in your favorite podcasting app or YouTube also if you become a paid annual subscriber of my newsletter you now get a year free of notion Pro and perplexity Pro and superhuman and linear and granola check it out at Lenny newsletter.","startTime":1.99,"endTime":147.959,"durationSeconds":146,"level":"C1","overallScore":9,"rationale":"창업 철학·비유·교훈과 표현이 매우 풍부."},{"segmentIndex":3,"text":"com Lenny and 10x your experiment velocity that's get eo. com Lenny Ivan thank you so much for being here and welcome to the podcast thank you for having me I know you don't do a lot of podcasts and so I'm very honored that you're here I want to start with the story of Ivan your background is quite unique for a founder of a 10 Billion Dollar Plus tech company and I don't think a lot of people know it for example you grew up in a small town in China and the way you got out of there the way you got into Tech is pretty interesting can you just walk us through that early years of Ivan and how you got out of there I think a small town in China the definition it's actually a four million people City so the city is called uruki is in the Northwest desert part of China so I grew up there and um then I moved into my mom took me to um Beijing the capital of China and um that's actually how I got into programming coding because I'm from somewhere else and in order to go into good school in the capital you need to win some kind of competition and there's different path you can get at math and there or you can get at programming like information Olympia um I was really into computer games at the time so of course I picked the programming one so I can play with computers all day long and I win some competition uh and got me into a good school so that's how I got into programming um later then I moved to Canada and when I moved to Canada got into college did not study computer science since I already know how to c um play a lot of video games did a lot of art actually Art and Science um by the time I graduated college I realized most my friends are artists they need to make their websites get web portfolio made and I'm the only nerd in my art friend Circle so I made three or four websites I realized oh actually people don't know how to create with a software media Computing medium so that got me to want to create a product like notion today which is a lot more people to create tools create software for their DayDay work and life okay so going back to uh you to get into a great school and to kind of leave this small town not so small you had to uh enter a programming contest and you uh you placed first or second or how well did you actually do in the second in Beijing so in Beijing okay pretty big V is a big city so okay incredible another stat I uh or story I heard is that you learned English by watching SpongeBob SquarePants Is that real yeah it's real um I moved to Canada pretty late uh 16 years old and what I learned is yeah in China you can learn English but it's typical just grammar and doing exams what you're missing is the context the culture so you have to watch SpongeBob or Simpsons to get a 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대한 통찰이 크다."}],"normalizedAudience":["창업자·스타트업","프로덕트 매니저·기획자","크리에이터·작가"],"summary":"이 구간은 Notion이 왜 지금 다시 주목받는지, 그리고 AI가 붙었을 때 수평 제품의 가치가 어떻게 커지는지를 설명한다. 이미 지난 몇 년 동안 쌓아둔 지식노동용 블록들 위에 AI 코딩 에이전트를 얹으면, 각 산업의 다양한 고객용 소프트웨어와 에이전트를 만들 수 있다는 점을 가장 흥미로운 변화로 본다.\n\n이후 화제는 번들링과 언번들링의 시장 주기, 그리고 Notion을 단순한 생산성 도구가 아니라 일하는 방식에 대한 철학으로 보는 관점으로 이어진다. 마지막에는 도구와 인간의 관계, 창의성과 아름다움을 소프트웨어에 어떻게 주입할 것인지, 그리고 기술 업계 밖의 역사·문학·다큐멘터리에서 아이디어를 훔쳐와야 한다는 조언까지 폭넓게 다룬다.","insights":["AI는 기존 수평 플랫폼 위의 활용 범위를 폭발적으로 넓힌다.","번들링과 언번들링은 시장의 파도처럼 반복된다.","수평 제품은 작은 블록으로 큰 복합성을 만드는 힘이 있다.","도구는 인간을 확장하지만, 동시에 인간을 다시 형성한다.","좋은 아이디어는 기술 업계 밖의 역사와 타 분야에 많다."],"keyClips":[{"clipId":"IIPKMixTMfE:c6:1-4","startSegmentIndex":1,"endSegmentIndex":4,"startTime":3602.19,"endTime":3634.559,"durationSeconds":32.4,"preview":"AI가 여는 새 확장","mustSee":false},{"clipId":"IIPKMixTMfE:c6:7-21","startSegmentIndex":7,"endSegmentIndex":21,"startTime":3643.2,"endTime":3760.2,"durationSeconds":117,"preview":"번들링의 시장파도","mustSee":true},{"clipId":"IIPKMixTMfE:c6:25-37","startSegmentIndex":25,"endSegmentIndex":37,"startTime":3779.52,"endTime":3898.799,"durationSeconds":119.3,"preview":"도구는 인간을 만든다","mustSee":false},{"clipId":"IIPKMixTMfE:c6:40-49","startSegmentIndex":40,"endSegmentIndex":49,"startTime":3914.48,"endTime":3976.839,"durationSeconds":62.4,"preview":"비개발자의 소프트웨어화","mustSee":false},{"clipId":"IIPKMixTMfE:c6:51-79","startSegmentIndex":51,"endSegmentIndex":79,"startTime":3987.68,"endTime":4182.759,"durationSeconds":195.1,"preview":"밖에서 훔쳐오기","mustSee":true}],"curatedSegments":[{"segmentIndex":1,"text":"the way you describe the early years of notion you describe the first three to four years as the last years we try many different version the first version they everybody can make and create their software so let's just build a developer tool that's so easy that more people can do that we try that like couple years and learn that actually most people just don't care the our realization is actually let's hide our vision which is everybody can create their software in the form factor that people do care so what kind of tool do people use every day productiv software it took us two years to realize we need to build a productivity tool we call the sugar called the broccoli people don't want to eat the broccoli but people like sugar so give them the sugar that highy your brocc inside of it what other elements do you think are key to you finding something that actually ended up working what is the building a product or business you want user you want Revenue that's a product business and building for something you want the world to have is building for your value you have some taste you have some aesthetic there are different energy you need to create a balance too much of yourself then there's no user you're just doing art project and too much for a business you're building a commodity the way you think about notion it's almost like a philosophy of how to work and be versus just a productivity tool and so I'm just curious how you think about the relationship between tools and human potential tools are extensions of us and once they extend us once we shape them once we bring them to World they can come back to shape us today my guest is Ivan Jiao Ivan is the co-founder and CEO of notion Ivan is a really unique and also a deeply philosophical founder who doesn't do a lot of podcasts so I'm really excited to share a glimpse into how he built one of the most beloved and most popular products in the world we talk about the first 3 to four years of notion that he describes as the Lost Years how he was able to get into a great School in China by winning a programming contest the joy and suffering of building a successful horizontal product plus his approach to staying lean and craft and making trade-offs and also leadership also a wild story about how notion almost died during Co because the one database that everything lived in almost ran out of space if you enjoy this podcast don't forget to subscribe and follow it in your favorite podcasting app or YouTube also if you become a paid annual subscriber of my newsletter you now get a year free of notion Pro and perplexity Pro and superhuman and linear and granola check it out at Lenny newsletter.","startTime":1.99,"endTime":147.959,"durationSeconds":146,"level":"C1","overallScore":9,"rationale":"창업 철학·비유·교훈과 표현이 매우 풍부."},{"segmentIndex":3,"text":"com Lenny and 10x your experiment velocity that's get eo. com Lenny Ivan thank you so much for being here and welcome to the podcast thank you for having me I know you don't do a lot of podcasts and so I'm very honored that you're here I want to start with the story of Ivan your background is quite unique for a founder of a 10 Billion Dollar Plus tech company and I don't think a lot of people know it for example you grew up in a small town in China and the way you got out of there the way you got into Tech is pretty interesting can you just walk us through that early years of Ivan and how you got out of there I think a small town in China the definition it's actually a four million people City so the city is called uruki is in the Northwest desert part of China so I grew up there and um then I moved into my mom took me to um Beijing the capital of China and um that's actually how I got into programming coding because I'm from somewhere else and in order to go into good school in the capital you need to win some kind of competition and there's different path you can get at math and there or you can get at programming like information Olympia um I was really into computer games at the time so of course I picked the programming one so I can play with computers all day long and I win some competition uh and got me into a good school so that's how I got into programming um later then I moved to Canada and when I moved to Canada got into college did not study computer science since I already know how to c um play a lot of video games 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yeah in China you can learn English but it's typical just grammar and doing exams what you're missing is the context the culture so you have to watch SpongeBob or Simpsons to get a sense of humor essentially you can't understand jokes right uh watching cartoon it's probably the easiest way to do that that's amazing um and there's another kind of seminal moment in your path I don't know if it was this point or later but the dungl Englebert paper uh ended up being a very meaningful moment for you so w was in Canada in last year of school working on trying to building website from our friends and uh building a creative tool for them and then you just look into the history of creative tool for software for computing um eventually arrive at 1960 and70s so you realize the first generation of computing Pioneers which is around San Francisco Stanford area South Bay they actually had the best ideas for this them people like dogas angle bar alen k 10 Nelson the first generation Pioneers for them Computing there shouldn't be a separation between Builders and users it's the same media angle Bar's original paper called augmenting human intellect when I read that paper it's like holy if you making software if you know how to codor design this is the highest leverage thing you can do for other people it's so given them the ability to use Computing to augment their problem solving ability or their intellect uh that just got me obsessed with this problem and I want to start a company like noit makes me think of Steve jobs' famous line of how the computer is a bicycle for the mind you know what Steve Jobs is actually at fault of this in some strange ways so the story is like actually the fact it's not just story um Xerox park has working on the first generation personal computer it's called Xerox Alto alen K was one of the main person behind it alutto runs down the system called Small Talk which is there's no separation between users and users app there's no thing called application everything is malleable you can change the tools right so when Steve Job the famous story is when he went to Zer zerox part to in demo with Al he does not it's the first time he see graphic user interface one of the first time and it's also they present him with this Alto system that everything could change but he did not see the power of it even when um","startTime":218.72,"endTime":225.56,"durationSeconds":7,"level":"C1","overallScore":9,"rationale":"개인 서사와 철학적 통찰, 유용 표현이 많음."},{"segmentIndex":33,"text":"You kind of have to hide your vision behind something that people understand and know how to use, and we call it sugar-coated broccoli.","startTime":821.48,"endTime":829.12,"durationSeconds":8,"level":"B2","overallScore":9,"rationale":"제품 포지셔닝 원리를 비유로 선명하게 제시."},{"segmentIndex":32,"text":"I think the more interesting point here, it's like you can create progress through better abstractions, and that thing compounds faster, can catch up to all the thing you build much quicker than you ever thought, right?","startTime":1382.72,"endTime":1393.919,"durationSeconds":11,"level":"C1","overallScore":8.8,"rationale":"추상화와 복리식 진전을 통찰적으로 설명."},{"segmentIndex":47,"text":"Like Notion, we call Notion's Lego for software. We sort of got lost there for a year and a half, shipping something not according to our value, not according to my value. We sort of shipped non-Lego pieces into our product.","startTime":2763.079,"endTime":2766.92,"durationSeconds":4,"level":"C1","overallScore":8.8,"rationale":"가치 이탈의 실패를 생생히 고백함."},{"segmentIndex":50,"text":"Then if you're trying to optimize too much on this competition, revenue side of things, forced to introducing something entirely value... and then you... the system... it's like there's organ rejection with your employees, with your customers, right?","startTime":2783.96,"endTime":2802.359,"durationSeconds":18,"level":"C1","overallScore":8.8,"rationale":"가치 불일치의 부작용 비유가 강함."},{"segmentIndex":28,"text":"One of my favorite quotes, like, the... One of my favorite quotes is like the Marsh quotes:\"We shape our tools, thereafter our tools shape us.\"Um, I think this is probably too philosophical for building product or business, but there is a sense thinking like what are you bringing to the world that will come back to bite you or shape you?","startTime":3809.279,"endTime":3817.2,"durationSeconds":8,"level":"C1","overallScore":9,"rationale":"인용과 질문이 모두 강한 통찰 제공."},{"segmentIndex":79,"text":"I think it would be a very interesting way for product makers, business makers, to solve the problem in front of them by stealing outside of it from the domain of tech and business. Um, it's about how different things from different domains inspire other domains, and usually he uses 30 minutes or 60 minutes to chain together a bunch of connection of stories.","startTime":4170,"endTime":4182.759,"durationSeconds":13,"level":"C1","overallScore":8.8,"rationale":"분야 밖 아이디어 차용법을 설명해 통찰적."},{"segmentIndex":20,"text":"The majority of people, they wake up, they have report due, they need to get their job done. They don't care creating software to optimize whatever they're doing.","startTime":726.88,"endTime":731.639,"durationSeconds":5,"level":"B2","overallScore":8,"rationale":"대중의 실제 니즈를 생생히 일반화함."},{"segmentIndex":28,"text":"Took us two years to realize when to build a productivity tool. So actually the world is not like you. The world are not like developer, designer-minded. The world is they only care what's in front of them, and that's so noisy.","startTime":784.68,"endTime":794.92,"durationSeconds":10,"level":"B2","overallScore":8,"rationale":"사용자 관점 전환을 강하게 일반화함."},{"segmentIndex":30,"text":"Very much so, because like sense of maturation is you don't see the world just from your perspective but from outside your perspective, right?","startTime":803.24,"endTime":812,"durationSeconds":9,"level":"B2","overallScore":8,"rationale":"성숙을 관점 확장으로 정의한 통찰."},{"segmentIndex":34,"text":"People don't want to eat the broccoli, but people like sugar, so give them the sugar, uh, inside of it. Wow.","startTime":829.12,"endTime":836.48,"durationSeconds":7,"level":"B1","overallScore":7.8,"rationale":"비유를 통해 수용성 원리를 쉽게 설명함."},{"segmentIndex":41,"text":"But in the middle of a realize, we build on a wrong technical foundation. We build on a wrong technical foundation, and if we continue to build on the wrong ones, we're going to run out the money.","startTime":861.72,"endTime":865.399,"durationSeconds":4,"level":"B2","overallScore":8,"rationale":"기술 선택 실패의 치명성을 잘 보여줌."},{"segmentIndex":81,"text":"Because me and him working so well now, even back then, it's like you sort of know what you other people are thinking, and you can just cross through the problem space really quickly, the technical product space, design space, um, and just non-stop of uh shipping stuff.","startTime":1115.84,"endTime":1135.2,"durationSeconds":19,"level":"C1","overallScore":8,"rationale":"협업 통찰이 크고 실무 구어도 풍부함."},{"segmentIndex":11,"text":"Looking in the thing we're building today and looking back, I find most proud of thing, like, I create something authentic to myself and happen to be also useful for others, and that just keeps you going.","startTime":1263.6,"endTime":1274.12,"durationSeconds":11,"level":"C1","overallScore":7.8,"rationale":"진정성과 지속 동력을 잘 설명함."},{"segmentIndex":17,"text":"So it's true, like, you're building too much for your own self and value without realizing at the end of the day if you're building a product and tool has to be used by others, you need to create a balance.","startTime":1304.559,"endTime":1315.48,"durationSeconds":11,"level":"C1","overallScore":8,"rationale":"자기표현과 사용자성의 균형 통찰."},{"segmentIndex":34,"text":"We're thinking in terms of linearly, and if you just reset and you find a better way to do it, you can get all the thing you have the S cost recovery really quickly.","startTime":1399.88,"endTime":1409.72,"durationSeconds":10,"level":"C1","overallScore":8,"rationale":"리셋의 회복 속도를 설득력 있게 설명."},{"segmentIndex":36,"text":"The kernel of things could be really small, but just like math it can compound.","startTime":1426.48,"endTime":1431.24,"durationSeconds":5,"level":"B2","overallScore":7.6,"rationale":"작은 커널의 복리 효과를 압축함."},{"segmentIndex":41,"text":"All these companies have been working on this for so long, and then they've cracked kind of an abstraction of how to think about scaling these systems, and now just people launch them and are immediately where the companies that have been working us for decades are today because they are building off these abstractions as you described in these.","startTime":1454.72,"endTime":1473.679,"durationSeconds":19,"level":"C1","overallScore":7.8,"rationale":"추상화가 산업 격차를 줄이는 설명."},{"segmentIndex":43,"text":"The point you also made about momentum, like, be afraid, be weary of momentum taking you in a direction and moving in a different, not being stuck to that direction, is exactly the way, uh, I think the Chain of Thought models now work actually, where generally LLMs are like next word.","startTime":1478.48,"endTime":1495.799,"durationSeconds":17,"level":"C1","overallScore":8.2,"rationale":"모멘텀 경계와 AI를 연결한 통찰."}],"generatedAt":"2026-06-25T00:22:23.737Z","keyClipsTotalSec":1633},{"videoId":"IIPKMixTMfE","chunkIndex":7,"totalChunks":8,"title":"Notion's lost years, near collapse during COVID, staying small to move fast, building horizontal — Part 8 of 8","thumbnail":"https://i.ytimg.com/vi/IIPKMixTMfE/maxresdefault.jpg","duration":4338,"uploader":"Lenny's Podcast","youtubeUrl":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IIPKMixTMfE","keywords":["podcast","startup","product","founder","notion","leadership","ai","craft","career","business"],"normalizedKeywords":["비즈니스·전략","프로덕트","리더십·매니지먼트"],"targetAudience":[{"who":"초기 창업자","why":"작게 빠르게 움직이며 제품을 개선하는 태도를 배울 수 있음"},{"who":"프로덕트 팀","why":"피드백을 제품 개선의 핵심 루프로 삼는 관점을 얻을 수 있음"},{"who":"구직자","why":"특이한 배경과 다면성을 가진 인재를 어떻게 보는지 알 수 있음"}],"normalizedAudience":["창업자·스타트업","프로덕트 매니저·기획자","학생·주니어"],"summary":"이 구간은 Notion 창업자 이반 자오가 말하는 일의 태도, 제품 철학, 채용 기준으로 정리된다. 그는 좋은 일은 결국 '공예(craft)'처럼 조금씩 더 나아지게 만들려는 집요함에서 나오며, 자기 자신에게도 유용하고 남에게도 쓸모 있으면 자연스럽게 전파된다고 본다.\n\n또한 사용자 피드백을 가장 중요한 도움으로 꼽고, DM을 통해 직접 의견을 달라고 요청한다. 채용에서는 정형화된 인재보다 여러 면에서 뛰어난 'misfit'을 선호하며, 소프트웨어를 레고처럼 만들고 AI를 흥미롭게 다루고 싶은 사람을 찾는다고 말한다. 전반적으로 제품을 개선하는 태도, 창업팀의 인재관, 그리고 실행 중심의 성장 철학이 짧게 압축된 마무리 대화다.","insights":["좋은 일은 공예처럼 끝없이 다듬는 태도에서 나온다.","자기 자신에게 유용해야 남에게도 쓸모가 된다.","가장 값진 도움은 제품에 대한 직접 피드백이다.","강한 팀은 정형화된 인재보다 미스핏에서 나온다.","AI도 결국 소프트웨어를 만드는 새로운 방식으로 본다."],"keyClips":[{"clipId":"IIPKMixTMfE:c7:5-7","startSegmentIndex":5,"endSegmentIndex":7,"startTime":4229.159,"endTime":4251.6,"durationSeconds":22.4,"preview":"공예처럼 일하기","mustSee":false},{"clipId":"IIPKMixTMfE:c7:8-12","startSegmentIndex":8,"endSegmentIndex":12,"startTime":4251.6,"endTime":4279.679,"durationSeconds":28.1,"preview":"피드백이 최고의 도움","mustSee":false},{"clipId":"IIPKMixTMfE:c7:13-15","startSegmentIndex":13,"endSegmentIndex":15,"startTime":4279.679,"endTime":4315.239,"durationSeconds":35.6,"preview":"미스핏 채용 철학","mustSee":false}],"curatedSegments":[{"segmentIndex":1,"text":"the way you describe the early years of notion you describe the first three to four years as the last years we try many different version the first version they everybody can make and create their software so let's just build a developer tool that's so easy that more people can do that we try that like couple years and learn that actually most people just don't care the our realization is actually let's hide our vision which is everybody can create their software in the form factor that people do care so what kind of tool do people use every day productiv software it took us two years to realize we need to build a productivity tool we call the sugar called the broccoli people don't want to eat the broccoli but people like sugar so give them the sugar that highy your brocc inside of it what other elements do you think are key to you finding something that actually ended up working what is the building a product or business you want user you want Revenue that's a product business and building for something you want the world to have is building for your value you have some taste you have some aesthetic there are different energy you need to create a balance too much of yourself then there's no user you're just doing art project and too much for a business you're building a commodity the way you think about notion it's almost like a philosophy of how to work and be versus just a productivity tool and so I'm just curious how you think about the relationship between tools and human potential tools are extensions of us and once they extend us once we shape them once we bring them to World they can come back to shape us today my guest is Ivan Jiao Ivan is the co-founder and CEO of notion Ivan is a really unique and also a deeply philosophical founder who doesn't do a lot of podcasts so I'm really excited to share a glimpse into how he built one of the most beloved and most popular products in the world we talk about the first 3 to four years of notion that he describes as the Lost Years how he was able to get into a great School in China by winning a programming contest the joy and suffering of building a successful horizontal product plus his approach to staying lean and craft and making trade-offs and also leadership also a wild story about how notion almost died during Co because the one database that everything lived in almost ran out of space if you enjoy this podcast don't forget to subscribe and follow it in your favorite podcasting app or YouTube also if you become a paid annual subscriber of my newsletter you now get a year free of notion Pro and perplexity Pro and superhuman and linear and granola check it out at Lenny newsletter.","startTime":1.99,"endTime":147.959,"durationSeconds":146,"level":"C1","overallScore":9,"rationale":"창업 철학·비유·교훈과 표현이 매우 풍부."},{"segmentIndex":3,"text":"com Lenny and 10x your experiment velocity that's get eo. com Lenny Ivan thank you so much for being here and welcome to the podcast thank you for having me I know you don't do a lot of podcasts and so I'm very honored that you're here I want to start with the story of Ivan your background is quite unique for a founder of a 10 Billion Dollar Plus tech company and I don't think a lot of people know it for example you grew up in a small town in China and the way you got out of there the way you got into Tech is pretty interesting can you just walk us through that early years of Ivan and how you got out of there I think a small town in China the definition it's actually a four million people City so the city is called uruki is in the Northwest desert part of China so I grew up there and um then I moved into my mom took me to um Beijing the capital of China and um that's actually how I got into programming coding because I'm from somewhere else and in order to go into good school in the capital you need to win some kind of competition and there's different path you can get at math and there or you can get at programming like information Olympia um I was really into computer games at the time so of course I picked the programming one so I can play with computers all day long and I win some competition uh and got me into a good school so that's how I got into programming um later then I moved to Canada and when I moved to Canada got into college did not study computer science since I already know how to c um play a lot of video games did a lot of art actually Art and Science um by the time I graduated college I realized most my friends are artists they need to make their websites get web portfolio made and I'm the only nerd in my art friend Circle so I made three or four websites I realized oh actually people don't know how to create with a software media Computing medium so that got me to want to create a product like notion today which is a lot more people to create tools create software for their DayDay work and life okay so going back to uh you to get into a great school and to kind of leave this small town not so small you had to uh enter a programming contest and you uh you placed first or second or how well did you actually do in the second in Beijing so in Beijing okay pretty big V is a big city so okay incredible another stat I uh or story I heard is that you learned English by watching SpongeBob SquarePants Is that real yeah it's real um I moved to Canada pretty late uh 16 years old and what I learned is yeah in China you can learn English but it's typical just grammar and doing exams what you're missing is the context the culture so you have to watch SpongeBob or Simpsons to get a sense of humor essentially you can't understand jokes right uh watching cartoon it's probably the easiest way to do that that's amazing um and there's another kind of seminal moment in your path I don't know if it was this point or later but the dungl Englebert paper uh ended up being a very meaningful moment for you so w was in Canada in last year of school working on trying to building website from our friends and uh building a creative tool for them and then you just look into the history of creative tool for software for computing um eventually arrive at 1960 and70s so you realize the first generation of computing Pioneers which is around San Francisco Stanford area South Bay they actually had the best ideas for this them people like dogas angle bar alen k 10 Nelson the first generation Pioneers for them Computing there shouldn't be a separation between Builders and users it's the same media angle Bar's original paper called augmenting human intellect when I read that paper it's like holy if you making software if you know how to codor design this is the highest leverage thing you can do for other people it's so given them the ability to use Computing to augment their problem solving ability or their intellect uh that just got me obsessed with this problem and I want to start a company like noit makes me think of Steve jobs' famous line of how the computer is a bicycle for the mind you know what Steve Jobs is actually at fault of this in some strange ways so the story is like actually the fact it's not just story um Xerox park has working on the first generation personal computer it's called Xerox Alto alen K was one of the main person behind it alutto runs down the system called Small Talk which is there's no separation between users and users app there's no thing called application everything is malleable you can change the tools right so when Steve Job the famous story is when he went to Zer zerox part to in demo with Al he does not it's the first time he see graphic user interface one of the first time and it's also they present him with this Alto system that everything could change but he did not see the power of it even when um","startTime":218.72,"endTime":225.56,"durationSeconds":7,"level":"C1","overallScore":9,"rationale":"개인 서사와 철학적 통찰, 유용 표현이 많음."},{"segmentIndex":33,"text":"You kind of have to hide your vision behind something that people understand and know how to use, and we call it sugar-coated broccoli.","startTime":821.48,"endTime":829.12,"durationSeconds":8,"level":"B2","overallScore":9,"rationale":"제품 포지셔닝 원리를 비유로 선명하게 제시."},{"segmentIndex":32,"text":"I think the more interesting point here, it's like you can create progress through better abstractions, and that thing compounds faster, can catch up to all the thing you build much quicker than you ever thought, right?","startTime":1382.72,"endTime":1393.919,"durationSeconds":11,"level":"C1","overallScore":8.8,"rationale":"추상화와 복리식 진전을 통찰적으로 설명."},{"segmentIndex":47,"text":"Like Notion, we call Notion's Lego for software. We sort of got lost there for a year and a half, shipping something not according to our value, not according to my value. We sort of shipped non-Lego pieces into our product.","startTime":2763.079,"endTime":2766.92,"durationSeconds":4,"level":"C1","overallScore":8.8,"rationale":"가치 이탈의 실패를 생생히 고백함."},{"segmentIndex":50,"text":"Then if you're trying to optimize too much on this competition, revenue side of things, forced to introducing something entirely value... and then you... the system... it's like there's organ rejection with your employees, with your customers, right?","startTime":2783.96,"endTime":2802.359,"durationSeconds":18,"level":"C1","overallScore":8.8,"rationale":"가치 불일치의 부작용 비유가 강함."},{"segmentIndex":28,"text":"One of my favorite quotes, like, the... One of my favorite quotes is like the Marsh quotes:\"We shape our tools, thereafter our tools shape us.\"Um, I think this is probably too philosophical for building product or business, but there is a sense thinking like what are you bringing to the world that will come back to bite you or shape you?","startTime":3809.279,"endTime":3817.2,"durationSeconds":8,"level":"C1","overallScore":9,"rationale":"인용과 질문이 모두 강한 통찰 제공."},{"segmentIndex":79,"text":"I think it would be a very interesting way for product makers, business makers, to solve the problem in front of them by stealing outside of it from the domain of tech and business. Um, it's about how different things from different domains inspire other domains, and usually he uses 30 minutes or 60 minutes to chain together a bunch of connection of stories.","startTime":4170,"endTime":4182.759,"durationSeconds":13,"level":"C1","overallScore":8.8,"rationale":"분야 밖 아이디어 차용법을 설명해 통찰적."},{"segmentIndex":20,"text":"The majority of people, they wake up, they have report due, they need to get their job done. They don't care creating software to optimize whatever they're doing.","startTime":726.88,"endTime":731.639,"durationSeconds":5,"level":"B2","overallScore":8,"rationale":"대중의 실제 니즈를 생생히 일반화함."},{"segmentIndex":28,"text":"Took us two years to realize when to build a productivity tool. So actually the world is not like you. The world are not like developer, designer-minded. The world is they only care what's in front of them, and that's so noisy.","startTime":784.68,"endTime":794.92,"durationSeconds":10,"level":"B2","overallScore":8,"rationale":"사용자 관점 전환을 강하게 일반화함."},{"segmentIndex":30,"text":"Very much so, because like sense of maturation is you don't see the world just from your perspective but from outside your perspective, right?","startTime":803.24,"endTime":812,"durationSeconds":9,"level":"B2","overallScore":8,"rationale":"성숙을 관점 확장으로 정의한 통찰."},{"segmentIndex":34,"text":"People don't want to eat the broccoli, but people like sugar, so give them the sugar, uh, inside of it. Wow.","startTime":829.12,"endTime":836.48,"durationSeconds":7,"level":"B1","overallScore":7.8,"rationale":"비유를 통해 수용성 원리를 쉽게 설명함."},{"segmentIndex":41,"text":"But in the middle of a realize, we build on a wrong technical foundation. We build on a wrong technical foundation, and if we continue to build on the wrong ones, we're going to run out the money.","startTime":861.72,"endTime":865.399,"durationSeconds":4,"level":"B2","overallScore":8,"rationale":"기술 선택 실패의 치명성을 잘 보여줌."},{"segmentIndex":81,"text":"Because me and him working so well now, even back then, it's like you sort of know what you other people are thinking, and you can just cross through the problem space really quickly, the technical product space, design space, um, and just non-stop of uh shipping stuff.","startTime":1115.84,"endTime":1135.2,"durationSeconds":19,"level":"C1","overallScore":8,"rationale":"협업 통찰이 크고 실무 구어도 풍부함."},{"segmentIndex":11,"text":"Looking in the thing we're building today and looking back, I find most proud of thing, like, I create something authentic to myself and happen to be also useful for others, and that just keeps you going.","startTime":1263.6,"endTime":1274.12,"durationSeconds":11,"level":"C1","overallScore":7.8,"rationale":"진정성과 지속 동력을 잘 설명함."},{"segmentIndex":17,"text":"So it's true, like, you're building too much for your own self and value without realizing at the end of the day if you're building a product and tool has to be used by others, you need to create a balance.","startTime":1304.559,"endTime":1315.48,"durationSeconds":11,"level":"C1","overallScore":8,"rationale":"자기표현과 사용자성의 균형 통찰."},{"segmentIndex":34,"text":"We're thinking in terms of linearly, and if you just reset and you find a better way to do it, you can get all the thing you have the S cost recovery really quickly.","startTime":1399.88,"endTime":1409.72,"durationSeconds":10,"level":"C1","overallScore":8,"rationale":"리셋의 회복 속도를 설득력 있게 설명."},{"segmentIndex":36,"text":"The kernel of things could be really small, but just like math it can compound.","startTime":1426.48,"endTime":1431.24,"durationSeconds":5,"level":"B2","overallScore":7.6,"rationale":"작은 커널의 복리 효과를 압축함."},{"segmentIndex":41,"text":"All these companies have been working on this for so long, and then they've cracked kind of an abstraction of how to think about scaling these systems, and now just people launch them and are immediately where the companies that have been working us for decades are today because they are building off these abstractions as you described in these.","startTime":1454.72,"endTime":1473.679,"durationSeconds":19,"level":"C1","overallScore":7.8,"rationale":"추상화가 산업 격차를 줄이는 설명."},{"segmentIndex":43,"text":"The point you also made about momentum, like, be afraid, be weary of momentum taking you in a direction and moving in a different, not being stuck to that direction, is exactly the way, uh, I think the Chain of Thought models now work actually, where generally LLMs are like next word.","startTime":1478.48,"endTime":1495.799,"durationSeconds":17,"level":"C1","overallScore":8.2,"rationale":"모멘텀 경계와 AI를 연결한 통찰."}],"generatedAt":"2026-06-25T00:23:02.628Z","keyClipsTotalSec":1633}]}