{"success":true,"count":7,"items":[{"videoId":"ill76IbVuM8","chunkIndex":0,"totalChunks":7,"title":"Notion’s Ivan Zhao: The Refounder — Part 1 of 7","thumbnail":"https://i.ytimg.com/vi/ill76IbVuM8/maxresdefault.jpg","duration":3786,"uploader":"Sequoia Capital","youtubeUrl":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ill76IbVuM8","keywords":["startup","leadership","management","ai","organization-design","product-strategy","notion","saas","founder-mode","knowledge-work"],"normalizedKeywords":["리더십·매니지먼트","비즈니스·전략","기술 트렌드"],"targetAudience":[{"who":"창업자","why":"회사를 키우는 방식과 조직 재설계의 힌트를 얻을 수 있음"},{"who":"프로덕트 리더","why":"AI 시대에 제품과 팀 구조를 어떻게 바꿀지 참고할 수 있음"},{"who":"지식노동자","why":"AI가 정보 흐름과 의사결정을 어떻게 바꾸는지 이해에 도움됨"}],"normalizedAudience":["창업자·스타트업","프로덕트 매니저·기획자","지식노동자 일반"],"summary":"이 영상은 Ivan Zhao가 Notion을 다시 설계해 온 과정, 특히 AI 등장 이후 회사의 운영 방식과 조직 구조를 어떻게 바꾸고 있는지를 다룬다. 그는 Notion이 오랫동안 작고 민첩한 팀으로 버티며 PMF를 찾았고, 이제는 AI를 중심에 두면서 전통적인 직무 경계와 관리 방식이 더는 잘 맞지 않는다고 본다. 핵심은 '인간이 정보 전달의 중간에 서는 구조'를 줄이고, 언어모델을 조직의 새로운 인프라처럼 써서 의사결정과 협업을 재구성하는 것이다.\n\n또한 그는 과거에는 고객 중심·역할 분업 중심으로 회사를 키웠다면, 지금은 기술이 먼저 실험을 이끄는 방식이 더 중요해졌다고 말한다. 디자이너, 엔지니어, PM의 경계가 흐려지고, 코드와 제품 감각을 함께 가진 사람들의 가치가 더 커진다. 전체적으로 이 영상은 'AI 네이티브 조직'이 무엇인지, 그리고 그 변화가 CEO의 역할과 회사 구조를 어떻게 바꾸는지에 대한 실전적 관점을 제공한다.","insights":["AI는 도구가 아니라 조직 설계의 전제가 되고 있다.","직무 경계가 뚜렷할수록 AI 시대엔 비효율이 커진다.","작고 수익나는 팀은 성장보다 생존력을 먼저 만든다.","기술이 급변할수록 고객보다 먼저 실험해야 한다.","AI가 중간 전달을 대체할수록 의사결정 구조도 바뀐다."],"keyClips":[{"clipId":"ill76IbVuM8:c0:1-9","startSegmentIndex":1,"endSegmentIndex":9,"startTime":2.389,"endTime":82.799,"durationSeconds":80.4,"preview":"재창업한 Notion","mustSee":true},{"clipId":"ill76IbVuM8:c0:34-41","startSegmentIndex":34,"endSegmentIndex":41,"startTime":203.2,"endTime":356.15999999999997,"durationSeconds":153,"preview":"작게 버틴 조직","mustSee":false},{"clipId":"ill76IbVuM8:c0:42-46","startSegmentIndex":42,"endSegmentIndex":46,"startTime":356.15999999999997,"endTime":491.599,"durationSeconds":135.4,"preview":"AI가 바꾼 분업","mustSee":true},{"clipId":"ill76IbVuM8:c0:47-54","startSegmentIndex":47,"endSegmentIndex":54,"startTime":491.599,"endTime":606.08,"durationSeconds":114.5,"preview":"AI 중간층 제거","mustSee":true}],"curatedSegments":[{"segmentIndex":42,"text":"Now the thing changed in the past three years since we're building with AI like we're one of the earlier um adopter of language modeling or product and you start think things are breaking building with this new technology the classic boundary between rows doesn't quite work the analogy I like to use back then it still is like building classic software is like engineer bridge if you can design it you usually can build it fairly predictable um like product manager talk to customers pass to designer pass to engineers right building with language model back then and somewhat still is it's like brewing beer >> you can't truly predict the things the underlying thing good analogy you cannot tell the east hey guys go towards that flavor profile more you can't do that right you sort of have to throw your best people in there >> see what the model see what technology gives you so it's not customer first it's more experiment with this technology first.","startTime":356.15999999999997,"endTime":375.68,"durationSeconds":20,"level":"C1","overallScore":10,"rationale":"AI 개발 본질을 비유로 풀어 통찰 최고급."},{"segmentIndex":12,"text":"A talent equal to this person's capability s experience times this person's um taste or value system times this person's um agency will right um what language model change is like just like Google everybody can access information language model allow everybody to be a pretty good writer and programmer so capability got normalized democratized and taste becomes still important like what's your value system what do you want to bring to the world which direction do you want to that you cannot change as easily and you will how hard do you work this you cannot change so we optimize for the latter to today >> okay >> that means in engineer science we're hired for much younger people okay >> internally we're call like IC early out of school IC >> this is the opposite of the way most of the CEOs I'm interviewing are going it's interesting >> I think more people are thrilled >> they say that like a junior engineer powered by the stuff's more productive but if you got a senior engineer that understands the whole system been there a while and they're pled they're like a 100x. >> Yes.","startTime":691.68,"endTime":751.12,"durationSeconds":59,"level":"C1","overallScore":9.8,"rationale":"AI 시대 인재 기준 변화 통찰이 깊음."},{"segmentIndex":54,"text":"you have to do that because like at the end of the day business are kind of like pathf finding entities right like we're in this thing called a market there's equilibrium for your company with the market with your shareholder with your company like we're just finding local optimas local maximums for different our niches when this new brand new ingredient got introduced into the market in this case language model doors are path that are opened up and we are Each company at different point in the market each you have different angle you have different niche you have to taking this internalize this new ingredient figure out which path got opened for you the truth is with the customer with yourself if you don't know how this can do you cannot find a new path I think you have to do something you have to feel this you feel the AI feel AGI >> I think you're right you use a word that I cringe at but I think is good called a lot of companies calcify as they get older.","startTime":2273.839,"endTime":2334.56,"durationSeconds":61,"level":"C2","overallScore":10,"rationale":"시장·탐색 비유와 표현 가치가 최고 수준."},{"segmentIndex":40,"text":"Um but that's the moment I sort of learned oh you need to delegate need to have introduced in professional manager management >> why who is telling you that >> it's a good question who te tell us some investors you didn't tell me that I don't think so uh >> it was conventional wisdom amongst the investor class >> I would say there's a pro and con for that like we sort of eyes resist that for a long time so we did not build a sales team in retrospect I should have started sales team earlier because I thought I can first principle the whole way like create new kind of PLG some kind of brand new motion that's a mistake um the other part is product marketing engineer those functions sort of I wouldn't call mistake but we're upping the traditional way of building it >> did you hire been there done that people in that phase >> we did >> and do you have any of them still >> um many of them are still with us yeah our CTO it's last three years before that there's another CTO during that phase.","startTime":285.199,"endTime":348.08,"durationSeconds":63,"level":"C1","overallScore":9.2,"rationale":"위임·채용 반성 통찰과 표현이 아주 강함."},{"segmentIndex":43,"text":"The analogy I like to use, we've been using somewhat is like before steel buildings cannot be higher than five six floors and New York City are largely six floor tall iron and stones and bricks >> after steel there's you information or way structure can go much higher since sometime language model plus software is that it's the steel for organizations.","startTime":375.68,"endTime":418,"durationSeconds":42,"level":"C1","overallScore":8.8,"rationale":"조직 변화를 강한 비유로 설명해 통찰 큼."},{"segmentIndex":46,"text":"Um designer is the most productive thing are designer and engineer and product people all just sit in the same bucket then work with evals work with experiences and figure out >> inside your company has one of those personas kind of dominated and the other ones falling aside or is there they all kind of do the same thing now >> we always started by like our DNA in the early days always blurry like we are one of the first to hire designer who can code I'm a designer who can code right so we build a company based um my image and my company my co-founder's image so those profile really shines designer who can co- engineer have strong product sense um PMs don't not afraid to roll up sleeve and try things like one of our heaviest token consumption person in the company is a pad for example >> those people really shines and we have quite a few of in the notion >> okay so you read the Dorsy stuff you read the Armstrong stuff my summary of it is they Think of like a big triangle or chart.","startTime":431.44,"endTime":491.599,"durationSeconds":60,"level":"C1","overallScore":9.2,"rationale":"AI 조직 설계 통찰과 실무 표현이 매우 강함."},{"segmentIndex":51,"text":"If some sense we're creating product for other company to do that >> but yourself >> the high premise is similar at least my interpretation of it it's so much knowledge work is paper pushing in the past it's really hard require software to push information from one person another but so much of a knowledge work is fuzzy so human need to be in the middle to pushing information from one to the other and turns out language model can do really good at two things one thing is to write the software to design the perfect pipes for your company to pushing information and decisions.","startTime":515.919,"endTime":548.88,"durationSeconds":33,"level":"C1","overallScore":9,"rationale":"지식노동 재구성 논리를 잘 설명한 핵심 문장."},{"segmentIndex":44,"text":"It's a community where as part of a community ecosystem uh or organization which is startup where is one of our most important communities um notion fans around the world and figure out how does this to move our market through those people right um that's the bucket of people >> and has the criteria changed sales marketing all the different other functions have you changed the way you think about the hire like most companies have a form when you interview someone has that form >> change we're actually in the middle of I just described engineer one right engineer designer it's the we changed two years ago yes um go to markets marketing would change no six monthsish ago sales were changing right now >> and when you hire a sales rep they have to be AI >> pil yes there we're actually changed our first interview no longer look at your resume build something for us send a notion link send something that you built we look at what you built How about compensation?","startTime":1008.48,"endTime":1070.16,"durationSeconds":62,"level":"C1","overallScore":9,"rationale":"채용 평가 방식 변화가 매우 구체적임."},{"segmentIndex":17,"text":"So um I would say the financial planning is still at least I find useful to give you a like you know you're on a treadmill you know how fast you're running right that's like a financial plan in my mind it's like oh am I running seven eight one nine what number that is but product strategy it's oh there's no freaking plan no plan uh because what changes the market the technology is so fast it's not in the six month it's not three months It's week by week.","startTime":1328.559,"endTime":1336.88,"durationSeconds":8,"level":"C1","overallScore":9,"rationale":"계획과 전략 차이를 통찰적으로 설명."},{"segmentIndex":28,"text":"you like what are you doing then you're not in the war mode right I think notion is for knowledge work which might have a different curve than coding products coding product you run frontier models usually the more the smarter the better um and knowledge work you can we already start to see this you sort of can settle with the second year the Chinese models the open way ones they're not super smart like a lot of this kind of paper pushing information in your company oh I spill coffee on the carpet can HR team come someone to tidy this up next week that doesn't require opus to file tickets right so that's a lot of problem we are best at solving at notion so that will have a different growth margin profile than >> yes >> the biggest product market fit today which is a coding agent >> yes okay you're kind of in my mind the king of refoundings >> you've done it I think twice at least Claude thinks you've done it twice.","startTime":1416.32,"endTime":1478.08,"durationSeconds":62,"level":"C1","overallScore":9,"rationale":"시장·원가·제품 차이를 깊게 풀어냄."},{"segmentIndex":43,"text":"um it's like AI writing product that has a boost but after that we've been pretty much want to build agent product in 2022 end of 2022 and that's a slo that took us a year and a half to really >> didn't really work back then >> didn't work at all like Simon >> I would say my problem and Simon's problem we might be living too much into the future y >> it bites you with new technology like we try everything built a model for us work openai finetuning or another just none of them work that will like a year and a half just go with no error and morale is definitely low only start to work a year and a half our revenue grow inflection this around the same time right when the AI product >> the underlying got better >> yeah it's like um but that was the that was a pretty painful period >> was that the most painful period in notion history for you >> different type of pain >> what was the most painful just when those two three early days pre-product market fit is despair I just like >> despair is that the word okay >> you don't know where it's coming from you don't know where to go right um when your growth rate low like during that period of time where we were try to rebuilding our AI foundation multiple times it's yeah that's not great um right now just everything on fire it's a different type of pain Nice.","startTime":2118.4,"endTime":2207.28,"durationSeconds":89,"level":"C1","overallScore":9,"rationale":"실패·절망·회복을 담은 고밀도 통찰."},{"segmentIndex":7,"text":"has never been harder to scale because like in every little micro segment if there's a little traction like there's hundred competitors two days later and the thing I've also noticed about the startup land is almost in every one of these verticals it's a duopoly there's like a one and a two and then 50 tied for third they're way off when you look back in time that the great companies were often founded in shitty times because people who are really grinders and people who really want to start a company and really have a vision didn't start in like 2022 2023 a terrible time to start in times like 2026 you get a lot of tourist entrepreneurs and so I've heard people say you know 2026 ventures is going to be crap even though the valuations are >> like crypto vibe energy >> yeah a little bit >> a little bit um I don't disagree market will do the thing market is kind of beautiful in that way >> yeah advice to founders of reasonable sized companies who are a little scared to refound You know, I I'm CEO of a 500 person company.","startTime":2441.359,"endTime":2502.16,"durationSeconds":61,"level":"C1","overallScore":9,"rationale":"창업·경쟁·시장에 대한 통찰이 풍부."},{"segmentIndex":46,"text":"I have to evolve a lot like I hate doing >> force yourself like how to work a significant other push you >> no I force myself okay um to lead the group of human you need to do one to many communications otherwise people don't trust you they want to hear from you >> writing is one mode which is like sometimes ling num but even more so is face to the all hands so for a while I try to delegate all hand to my co-founders to other exeacts no way I have to now at every all and I'm open the mic.","startTime":2768.8,"endTime":2799.52,"durationSeconds":31,"level":"C1","overallScore":9,"rationale":"리더십 소통 원칙과 실천이 모두 담김."},{"segmentIndex":14,"text":"like um power is this the CEO game is full of that game just like entertainment just like sports you have that like high school college lunch sessions right you watch that in real in the tech scene it also could be a pursuit of your personal values this is something I realized more in the past three four years it's like I need to be in equilibrium with my own value of what this company I want to build with that give me more gen more sustainable energy source.","startTime":3074.4,"endTime":3109.119,"durationSeconds":35,"level":"C1","overallScore":8.8,"rationale":"CEO 역할과 가치의 균형 통찰이 큼."},{"segmentIndex":32,"text":"If we because notion sales could start earlier but we want to first principle our way into it which is we're going to design our own system that doesn't work like again it's a reflection of human nature a lot of things you want to talk to a seller there's a lot of the reason the modern sales playbook has been around for twoish decades right so >> I think enterprise sales is like the last function like >> I agree with you it's like that you want to see a human you feel comfortable >> you don't want to have be a doctor from a robot?","startTime":3232.72,"endTime":3263.76,"durationSeconds":31,"level":"C1","overallScore":8.8,"rationale":"판매 본질을 인간 심리로 풀어 설명."},{"segmentIndex":38,"text":"May that's but that's the thing made hotspot right like this inbound >> that was the thing >> you should only have each company should only preserve your innovation point to few places go a couple places you cannot spread everywhere like otherwise you're spread too thin you're like you're trying to like reinvent the wheel well too many times we try to put our in innovation point onto sales back then just go classic sales it works um but you and make a lot more efficient today with a lot of tools we're building internally.","startTime":3290.72,"endTime":3323.839,"durationSeconds":33,"level":"C1","overallScore":9,"rationale":"혁신 자원 배분 원칙이 매우 선명함."},{"segmentIndex":14,"text":"the new way that Dorsy described and I didn't quite get into it with Ivan but I suspect it's similar is it's a circle and in the middle is all of the context in the AI system and initially humans are making all the decisions but over time as you give that kind of centralized AI system more context it gets smarter and you're feeding in context and you turn over more and more of the decisions to them I don't think it happens overnight I think it's gradual but it's an IT task to get it right you have to be legible.","startTime":3702,"endTime":3731.28,"durationSeconds":29,"level":"C1","overallScore":9,"rationale":"새 조직 모델 설명이 깊고 표현도 풍부함."},{"segmentIndex":9,"text":"After that, they got product market fit and it really took off. He did the same thing in 2023 around generative AI in an offsite down in Cancun and literally restarted the company and in my mind he's the canonical example of how a SAS company can move and become an AI company.","startTime":64,"endTime":82.799,"durationSeconds":19,"level":"C1","overallScore":8,"rationale":"전환 서사와 비즈니스 표현이 풍부함."},{"segmentIndex":39,"text":"Um so we have been very small from the get-go and we sort of taste the sweet of it because it's you're small you're profitable easier to raise money you're default alive and um we've been resisting growing team size and during co a lot of companies really blew up remember that right >> I'm sure you did >> we relatively yeah blew up >> you got to product market fit at the right time >> we grow to product market around the same time um there's a lot of eyes that you got to grow so we did grow um relative to other company still resistant to grow a lot uh in terms of headcount.","startTime":251.439,"endTime":285.199,"durationSeconds":34,"level":"C1","overallScore":8.2,"rationale":"성장 전략 통찰과 실무 표현이 매우 풍부."},{"segmentIndex":49,"text":"Basically stick AI in the middle and start delegating more and more over time and letting the system make decisions and feeding it context in good ways.","startTime":499.36,"endTime":506.16,"durationSeconds":7,"level":"C1","overallScore":8,"rationale":"AI 중심 조직 원리를 압축해 표현함."}],"generatedAt":"2026-06-24T23:43:01.396Z","keyClipsTotalSec":1503},{"videoId":"ill76IbVuM8","chunkIndex":1,"totalChunks":7,"title":"Notion’s Ivan Zhao: The Refounder — Part 2 of 7","thumbnail":"https://i.ytimg.com/vi/ill76IbVuM8/maxresdefault.jpg","duration":3786,"uploader":"Sequoia Capital","youtubeUrl":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ill76IbVuM8","keywords":["leadership","management","startup","ai","hiring","org-design","talent","product-strategy","marketing","culture"],"normalizedKeywords":["리더십·매니지먼트","비즈니스·전략","기술 트렌드"],"targetAudience":[{"who":"창업자","why":"AI 시대에 조직 구조와 채용 기준을 어떻게 바꿔야 하는지 배울 수 있음"},{"who":"프로덕트 리더","why":"빠르게 변하는 제품 환경에서 마케팅·조직을 제품 옆에 붙이는 법을 볼 수 있음"},{"who":"채용 담당자","why":"경험보다 agency, taste, curiosity를 보는 채용 프레임을 참고할 수 있음"},{"who":"엔지니어","why":"AI로 인해 개발 조직이 더 평평해지고 barbell 구조로 가는 흐름을 이해할 수 있음"}],"normalizedAudience":["창업자·스타트업","프로덕트 매니저·기획자","엔지니어·개발자"],"summary":"이 영상은 Notion이 AI 시대에 맞춰 조직과 채용, 보상 체계를 어떻게 재설계하고 있는지를 다룬다. Ivan Zhao는 기존의 계층적 구조가 완전히 사라지지는 않지만, AI 덕분에 회사는 더 평평해지고, 개인의 직접 관리 범위도 더 넓어질 수 있다고 본다. 그래서 채용 기준도 경험 중심에서 agency, energy, optimism, curiosity, taste 같은 요소로 이동하고, 엔지니어 조직은 젊은 인재와 아주 시니어한 인재가 함께 있는 barbell 구조가 더 적합하다고 주장한다.\n\n또한 마케팅과 세일즈까지도 기존의 CMO 중심 구조로는 속도를 따라갈 수 없어, storytelling, product, social, demand gen이 더 분산되고 밀착된 형태로 바뀌고 있다고 설명한다. 전반적으로 이 대화는 AI가 단순히 생산성을 높이는 도구가 아니라, 조직 설계와 인재 평가의 기준 자체를 바꾸는 전환점이라는 메시지를 강하게 전달한다.","insights":["AI 시대엔 조직이 더 평평해지고 관리 폭이 넓어진다.","경험보다 agency·curiosity·taste가 더 중요한 채용 기준이 된다.","인재는 중간층보다 초주니어와 초시니어의 barbell이 강하다.","마케팅은 CMO 중심보다 제품 옆에 붙을수록 빨라진다.","전쟁 같은 변화기엔 보상보다 실행력과 적응력이 더 중요하다."],"keyClips":[{"clipId":"ill76IbVuM8:c1:1-6","startSegmentIndex":1,"endSegmentIndex":6,"startTime":600.07,"endTime":659.6,"durationSeconds":59.5,"preview":"AI가 바꾸는 조직","mustSee":false},{"clipId":"ill76IbVuM8:c1:9-18","startSegmentIndex":9,"endSegmentIndex":18,"startTime":672,"endTime":798.24,"durationSeconds":126.2,"preview":"채용 기준의 전환","mustSee":true},{"clipId":"ill76IbVuM8:c1:21-33","startSegmentIndex":21,"endSegmentIndex":33,"startTime":805.76,"endTime":934.32,"durationSeconds":128.6,"preview":"Taste가 중요해진 이유","mustSee":false},{"clipId":"ill76IbVuM8:c1:36-44","startSegmentIndex":36,"endSegmentIndex":44,"startTime":942.72,"endTime":1070.16,"durationSeconds":127.4,"preview":"마케팅도 분산된다","mustSee":false},{"clipId":"ill76IbVuM8:c1:45-61","startSegmentIndex":45,"endSegmentIndex":61,"startTime":1070.16,"endTime":1199.2,"durationSeconds":129,"preview":"전쟁 같은 운영","mustSee":false}],"curatedSegments":[{"segmentIndex":42,"text":"Now the thing changed in the past three years since we're building with AI like we're one of the earlier um adopter of language modeling or product and you start think things are breaking building with this new technology the classic boundary between rows doesn't quite work the analogy I like to use back then it still is like building classic software is like engineer bridge if you can design it you usually can build it fairly predictable um like product manager talk to customers pass to designer pass to engineers right building with language model back then and somewhat still is it's like brewing beer >> you can't truly predict the things the underlying thing good analogy you cannot tell the east hey guys go towards that flavor profile more you can't do that right you sort of have to throw your best people in there >> see what the model see what technology gives you so it's not customer first it's more experiment with this technology first.","startTime":356.15999999999997,"endTime":375.68,"durationSeconds":20,"level":"C1","overallScore":10,"rationale":"AI 개발 본질을 비유로 풀어 통찰 최고급."},{"segmentIndex":12,"text":"A talent equal to this person's capability s experience times this person's um taste or value system times this person's um agency will right um what language model change is like just like Google everybody can access information language model allow everybody to be a pretty good writer and programmer so capability got normalized democratized and taste becomes still important like what's your value system what do you want to bring to the world which direction do you want to that you cannot change as easily and you will how hard do you work this you cannot change so we optimize for the latter to today >> okay >> that means in engineer science we're hired for much younger people okay >> internally we're call like IC early out of school IC >> this is the opposite of the way most of the CEOs I'm interviewing are going it's interesting >> I think more people are thrilled >> they say that like a junior engineer powered by the stuff's more productive but if you got a senior engineer that understands the whole system been there a while and they're pled they're like a 100x. >> Yes.","startTime":691.68,"endTime":751.12,"durationSeconds":59,"level":"C1","overallScore":9.8,"rationale":"AI 시대 인재 기준 변화 통찰이 깊음."},{"segmentIndex":54,"text":"you have to do that because like at the end of the day business are kind of like pathf finding entities right like we're in this thing called a market there's equilibrium for your company with the market with your shareholder with your company like we're just finding local optimas local maximums for different our niches when this new brand new ingredient got introduced into the market in this case language model doors are path that are opened up and we are Each company at different point in the market each you have different angle you have different niche you have to taking this internalize this new ingredient figure out which path got opened for you the truth is with the customer with yourself if you don't know how this can do you cannot find a new path I think you have to do something you have to feel this you feel the AI feel AGI >> I think you're right you use a word that I cringe at but I think is good called a lot of companies calcify as they get older.","startTime":2273.839,"endTime":2334.56,"durationSeconds":61,"level":"C2","overallScore":10,"rationale":"시장·탐색 비유와 표현 가치가 최고 수준."},{"segmentIndex":40,"text":"Um but that's the moment I sort of learned oh you need to delegate need to have introduced in professional manager management >> why who is telling you that >> it's a good question who te tell us some investors you didn't tell me that I don't think so uh >> it was conventional wisdom amongst the investor class >> I would say there's a pro and con for that like we sort of eyes resist that for a long time so we did not build a sales team in retrospect I should have started sales team earlier because I thought I can first principle the whole way like create new kind of PLG some kind of brand new motion that's a mistake um the other part is product marketing engineer those functions sort of I wouldn't call mistake but we're upping the traditional way of building it >> did you hire been there done that people in that phase >> we did >> and do you have any of them still >> um many of them are still with us yeah our CTO it's last three years before that there's another CTO during that phase.","startTime":285.199,"endTime":348.08,"durationSeconds":63,"level":"C1","overallScore":9.2,"rationale":"위임·채용 반성 통찰과 표현이 아주 강함."},{"segmentIndex":43,"text":"The analogy I like to use, we've been using somewhat is like before steel buildings cannot be higher than five six floors and New York City are largely six floor tall iron and stones and bricks >> after steel there's you information or way structure can go much higher since sometime language model plus software is that it's the steel for organizations.","startTime":375.68,"endTime":418,"durationSeconds":42,"level":"C1","overallScore":8.8,"rationale":"조직 변화를 강한 비유로 설명해 통찰 큼."},{"segmentIndex":46,"text":"Um designer is the most productive thing are designer and engineer and product people all just sit in the same bucket then work with evals work with experiences and figure out >> inside your company has one of those personas kind of dominated and the other ones falling aside or is there they all kind of do the same thing now >> we always started by like our DNA in the early days always blurry like we are one of the first to hire designer who can code I'm a designer who can code right so we build a company based um my image and my company my co-founder's image so those profile really shines designer who can co- engineer have strong product sense um PMs don't not afraid to roll up sleeve and try things like one of our heaviest token consumption person in the company is a pad for example >> those people really shines and we have quite a few of in the notion >> okay so you read the Dorsy stuff you read the Armstrong stuff my summary of it is they Think of like a big triangle or chart.","startTime":431.44,"endTime":491.599,"durationSeconds":60,"level":"C1","overallScore":9.2,"rationale":"AI 조직 설계 통찰과 실무 표현이 매우 강함."},{"segmentIndex":51,"text":"If some sense we're creating product for other company to do that >> but yourself >> the high premise is similar at least my interpretation of it it's so much knowledge work is paper pushing in the past it's really hard require software to push information from one person another but so much of a knowledge work is fuzzy so human need to be in the middle to pushing information from one to the other and turns out language model can do really good at two things one thing is to write the software to design the perfect pipes for your company to pushing information and decisions.","startTime":515.919,"endTime":548.88,"durationSeconds":33,"level":"C1","overallScore":9,"rationale":"지식노동 재구성 논리를 잘 설명한 핵심 문장."},{"segmentIndex":44,"text":"It's a community where as part of a community ecosystem uh or organization which is startup where is one of our most important communities um notion fans around the world and figure out how does this to move our market through those people right um that's the bucket of people >> and has the criteria changed sales marketing all the different other functions have you changed the way you think about the hire like most companies have a form when you interview someone has that form >> change we're actually in the middle of I just described engineer one right engineer designer it's the we changed two years ago yes um go to markets marketing would change no six monthsish ago sales were changing right now >> and when you hire a sales rep they have to be AI >> pil yes there we're actually changed our first interview no longer look at your resume build something for us send a notion link send something that you built we look at what you built How about compensation?","startTime":1008.48,"endTime":1070.16,"durationSeconds":62,"level":"C1","overallScore":9,"rationale":"채용 평가 방식 변화가 매우 구체적임."},{"segmentIndex":17,"text":"So um I would say the financial planning is still at least I find useful to give you a like you know you're on a treadmill you know how fast you're running right that's like a financial plan in my mind it's like oh am I running seven eight one nine what number that is but product strategy it's oh there's no freaking plan no plan uh because what changes the market the technology is so fast it's not in the six month it's not three months It's week by week.","startTime":1328.559,"endTime":1336.88,"durationSeconds":8,"level":"C1","overallScore":9,"rationale":"계획과 전략 차이를 통찰적으로 설명."},{"segmentIndex":28,"text":"you like what are you doing then you're not in the war mode right I think notion is for knowledge work which might have a different curve than coding products coding product you run frontier models usually the more the smarter the better um and knowledge work you can we already start to see this you sort of can settle with the second year the Chinese models the open way ones they're not super smart like a lot of this kind of paper pushing information in your company oh I spill coffee on the carpet can HR team come someone to tidy this up next week that doesn't require opus to file tickets right so that's a lot of problem we are best at solving at notion so that will have a different growth margin profile than >> yes >> the biggest product market fit today which is a coding agent >> yes okay you're kind of in my mind the king of refoundings >> you've done it I think twice at least Claude thinks you've done it twice.","startTime":1416.32,"endTime":1478.08,"durationSeconds":62,"level":"C1","overallScore":9,"rationale":"시장·원가·제품 차이를 깊게 풀어냄."},{"segmentIndex":43,"text":"um it's like AI writing product that has a boost but after that we've been pretty much want to build agent product in 2022 end of 2022 and that's a slo that took us a year and a half to really >> didn't really work back then >> didn't work at all like Simon >> I would say my problem and Simon's problem we might be living too much into the future y >> it bites you with new technology like we try everything built a model for us work openai finetuning or another just none of them work that will like a year and a half just go with no error and morale is definitely low only start to work a year and a half our revenue grow inflection this around the same time right when the AI product >> the underlying got better >> yeah it's like um but that was the that was a pretty painful period >> was that the most painful period in notion history for you >> different type of pain >> what was the most painful just when those two three early days pre-product market fit is despair I just like >> despair is that the word okay >> you don't know where it's coming from you don't know where to go right um when your growth rate low like during that period of time where we were try to rebuilding our AI foundation multiple times it's yeah that's not great um right now just everything on fire it's a different type of pain Nice.","startTime":2118.4,"endTime":2207.28,"durationSeconds":89,"level":"C1","overallScore":9,"rationale":"실패·절망·회복을 담은 고밀도 통찰."},{"segmentIndex":7,"text":"has never been harder to scale because like in every little micro segment if there's a little traction like there's hundred competitors two days later and the thing I've also noticed about the startup land is almost in every one of these verticals it's a duopoly there's like a one and a two and then 50 tied for third they're way off when you look back in time that the great companies were often founded in shitty times because people who are really grinders and people who really want to start a company and really have a vision didn't start in like 2022 2023 a terrible time to start in times like 2026 you get a lot of tourist entrepreneurs and so I've heard people say you know 2026 ventures is going to be crap even though the valuations are >> like crypto vibe energy >> yeah a little bit >> a little bit um I don't disagree market will do the thing market is kind of beautiful in that way >> yeah advice to founders of reasonable sized companies who are a little scared to refound You know, I I'm CEO of a 500 person company.","startTime":2441.359,"endTime":2502.16,"durationSeconds":61,"level":"C1","overallScore":9,"rationale":"창업·경쟁·시장에 대한 통찰이 풍부."},{"segmentIndex":46,"text":"I have to evolve a lot like I hate doing >> force yourself like how to work a significant other push you >> no I force myself okay um to lead the group of human you need to do one to many communications otherwise people don't trust you they want to hear from you >> writing is one mode which is like sometimes ling num but even more so is face to the all hands so for a while I try to delegate all hand to my co-founders to other exeacts no way I have to now at every all and I'm open the mic.","startTime":2768.8,"endTime":2799.52,"durationSeconds":31,"level":"C1","overallScore":9,"rationale":"리더십 소통 원칙과 실천이 모두 담김."},{"segmentIndex":14,"text":"like um power is this the CEO game is full of that game just like entertainment just like sports you have that like high school college lunch sessions right you watch that in real in the tech scene it also could be a pursuit of your personal values this is something I realized more in the past three four years it's like I need to be in equilibrium with my own value of what this company I want to build with that give me more gen more sustainable energy source.","startTime":3074.4,"endTime":3109.119,"durationSeconds":35,"level":"C1","overallScore":8.8,"rationale":"CEO 역할과 가치의 균형 통찰이 큼."},{"segmentIndex":32,"text":"If we because notion sales could start earlier but we want to first principle our way into it which is we're going to design our own system that doesn't work like again it's a reflection of human nature a lot of things you want to talk to a seller there's a lot of the reason the modern sales playbook has been around for twoish decades right so >> I think enterprise sales is like the last function like >> I agree with you it's like that you want to see a human you feel comfortable >> you don't want to have be a doctor from a robot?","startTime":3232.72,"endTime":3263.76,"durationSeconds":31,"level":"C1","overallScore":8.8,"rationale":"판매 본질을 인간 심리로 풀어 설명."},{"segmentIndex":38,"text":"May that's but that's the thing made hotspot right like this inbound >> that was the thing >> you should only have each company should only preserve your innovation point to few places go a couple places you cannot spread everywhere like otherwise you're spread too thin you're like you're trying to like reinvent the wheel well too many times we try to put our in innovation point onto sales back then just go classic sales it works um but you and make a lot more efficient today with a lot of tools we're building internally.","startTime":3290.72,"endTime":3323.839,"durationSeconds":33,"level":"C1","overallScore":9,"rationale":"혁신 자원 배분 원칙이 매우 선명함."},{"segmentIndex":14,"text":"the new way that Dorsy described and I didn't quite get into it with Ivan but I suspect it's similar is it's a circle and in the middle is all of the context in the AI system and initially humans are making all the decisions but over time as you give that kind of centralized AI system more context it gets smarter and you're feeding in context and you turn over more and more of the decisions to them I don't think it happens overnight I think it's gradual but it's an IT task to get it right you have to be legible.","startTime":3702,"endTime":3731.28,"durationSeconds":29,"level":"C1","overallScore":9,"rationale":"새 조직 모델 설명이 깊고 표현도 풍부함."},{"segmentIndex":9,"text":"After that, they got product market fit and it really took off. He did the same thing in 2023 around generative AI in an offsite down in Cancun and literally restarted the company and in my mind he's the canonical example of how a SAS company can move and become an AI company.","startTime":64,"endTime":82.799,"durationSeconds":19,"level":"C1","overallScore":8,"rationale":"전환 서사와 비즈니스 표현이 풍부함."},{"segmentIndex":39,"text":"Um so we have been very small from the get-go and we sort of taste the sweet of it because it's you're small you're profitable easier to raise money you're default alive and um we've been resisting growing team size and during co a lot of companies really blew up remember that right >> I'm sure you did >> we relatively yeah blew up >> you got to product market fit at the right time >> we grow to product market around the same time um there's a lot of eyes that you got to grow so we did grow um relative to other company still resistant to grow a lot uh in terms of headcount.","startTime":251.439,"endTime":285.199,"durationSeconds":34,"level":"C1","overallScore":8.2,"rationale":"성장 전략 통찰과 실무 표현이 매우 풍부."},{"segmentIndex":49,"text":"Basically stick AI in the middle and start delegating more and more over time and letting the system make decisions and feeding it context in good ways.","startTime":499.36,"endTime":506.16,"durationSeconds":7,"level":"C1","overallScore":8,"rationale":"AI 중심 조직 원리를 압축해 표현함."}],"generatedAt":"2026-06-24T23:43:29.876Z","keyClipsTotalSec":1503},{"videoId":"ill76IbVuM8","chunkIndex":2,"totalChunks":7,"title":"Notion’s Ivan Zhao: The Refounder — Part 3 of 7","thumbnail":"https://i.ytimg.com/vi/ill76IbVuM8/maxresdefault.jpg","duration":3786,"uploader":"Sequoia Capital","youtubeUrl":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ill76IbVuM8","keywords":["startup","founder-mode","leadership","product-strategy","ai","saas","product-market-fit","refounding","business","organization-design"],"normalizedKeywords":["리더십·매니지먼트","비즈니스·전략","기술 트렌드"],"targetAudience":[{"who":"창업자","why":"회사를 다시 정의하고 조직 운영 방식을 바꾸는 기준을 배울 수 있음"},{"who":"프로덕트 리더","why":"빠르게 변하는 시장에서 계획과 전략을 어떻게 다뤄야 하는지 도움됨"},{"who":"지식노동자","why":"AI 시대에 협업 방식과 업무 비용 구조가 어떻게 바뀌는지 이해할 수 있음"}],"normalizedAudience":["창업자·스타트업","프로덕트 매니저·기획자","지식노동자 일반"],"summary":"이 영상은 이반 자오가 노션을 어떻게 두 번 'refounding'했는지, 그리고 왜 지금의 AI 시대에는 전통적인 매니지먼트보다 'jazz band' 같은 운영 방식이 더 맞는지 설명한다. 그는 큰 조직을 일사불란하게 밀어붙이는 'marching band'식 운영이 아니라, 상황 변화에 즉흥적으로 맞추며 서로의 기여를 살리는 협업이 필요하다고 말한다. 동시에 제품 전략은 주 단위로 바뀌기 때문에 계획이 거의 없을 수 있지만, 재무 계획과 비용 관리는 더 보수적으로 가져가야 한다고 강조한다.\n\n후반부에서는 노션의 첫 번째 refounding(키오토/교토로 옮겨 두 명만 남고 재구축)과, 최근 AI 모델 접근을 계기로 다시 AI 회사로 재정의한 과정을 비교한다. 그는 refounding을 단순한 피벗이 아니라, 오랫동안 집착해 온 문제와 자신들의 성향에 맞춰 회사를 다시 조율하는 일로 본다. 결국 이 영상의 핵심은 \"좋은 창업자는 회사를 고정된 형태로 지키는 사람이 아니라, 시장과 자기 정체성에 맞게 계속 다시 설계하는 사람\"이라는 점이다.","insights":["좋은 조직 운영은 통제가 아니라 즉흥성과 기여를 살리는 구조다.","전략은 주 단위로 흔들려도, 재무는 더 보수적으로 잡아야 한다.","AI 시대에는 제품의 지능 수준에 따라 비용·마진 구조가 달라진다.","refounding은 실패 후 도피가 아니라 회사의 본질을 다시 맞추는 일이다.","창업은 새 아이디어를 찾는 게임이 아니라 집착한 문제를 끝까지 푸는 일이다."],"keyClips":[{"clipId":"ill76IbVuM8:c2:3-10","startSegmentIndex":3,"endSegmentIndex":10,"startTime":1222.32,"endTime":1290.88,"durationSeconds":68.6,"preview":"재즈밴드식 운영","mustSee":false},{"clipId":"ill76IbVuM8:c2:15-21","startSegmentIndex":15,"endSegmentIndex":21,"startTime":1313.6,"endTime":1382.96,"durationSeconds":69.4,"preview":"전략과 예산 분리","mustSee":true},{"clipId":"ill76IbVuM8:c2:22-28","startSegmentIndex":22,"endSegmentIndex":28,"startTime":1382.96,"endTime":1478.08,"durationSeconds":95.1,"preview":"AI 시대 마진 현실","mustSee":true},{"clipId":"ill76IbVuM8:c2:29-51","startSegmentIndex":29,"endSegmentIndex":51,"startTime":1478.08,"endTime":1639.52,"durationSeconds":161.4,"preview":"교토에서의 재건","mustSee":true},{"clipId":"ill76IbVuM8:c2:52-65","startSegmentIndex":52,"endSegmentIndex":65,"startTime":1639.52,"endTime":1745.84,"durationSeconds":106.3,"preview":"장소와 서사의 힘","mustSee":false},{"clipId":"ill76IbVuM8:c2:66-72","startSegmentIndex":66,"endSegmentIndex":72,"startTime":1745.84,"endTime":1807.919,"durationSeconds":62.1,"preview":"노션을 끝까지 쥐는 이유","mustSee":false}],"curatedSegments":[{"segmentIndex":42,"text":"Now the thing changed in the past three years since we're building with AI like we're one of the earlier um adopter of language modeling or product and you start think things are breaking building with this new technology the classic boundary between rows doesn't quite work the analogy I like to use back then it still is like building classic software is like engineer bridge if you can design it you usually can build it fairly predictable um like product manager talk to customers pass to designer pass to engineers right building with language model back then and somewhat still is it's like brewing beer >> you can't truly predict the things the underlying thing good analogy you cannot tell the east hey guys go towards that flavor profile more you can't do that right you sort of have to throw your best people in there >> see what the model see what technology gives you so it's not customer first it's more experiment with this technology first.","startTime":356.15999999999997,"endTime":375.68,"durationSeconds":20,"level":"C1","overallScore":10,"rationale":"AI 개발 본질을 비유로 풀어 통찰 최고급."},{"segmentIndex":12,"text":"A talent equal to this person's capability s experience times this person's um taste or value system times this person's um agency will right um what language model change is like just like Google everybody can access information language model allow everybody to be a pretty good writer and programmer so capability got normalized democratized and taste becomes still important like what's your value system what do you want to bring to the world which direction do you want to that you cannot change as easily and you will how hard do you work this you cannot change so we optimize for the latter to today >> okay >> that 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think so uh >> it was conventional wisdom amongst the investor class >> I would say there's a pro and con for that like we sort of eyes resist that for a long time so we did not build a sales team in retrospect I should have started sales team earlier because I thought I can first principle the whole way like create new kind of PLG some kind of brand new motion that's a mistake um the other part is product marketing engineer those functions sort of I wouldn't call mistake but we're upping the traditional way of building it >> did you hire been there done that people in that phase >> we did >> and do you have any of them still >> um many of them are still with us yeah our CTO it's last three years before that there's another CTO during that phase.","startTime":285.199,"endTime":348.08,"durationSeconds":63,"level":"C1","overallScore":9.2,"rationale":"위임·채용 반성 통찰과 표현이 아주 강함."},{"segmentIndex":43,"text":"The analogy I like to use, we've been using somewhat is like before steel buildings cannot be higher than five six floors and New York City are largely six floor tall iron and stones and bricks >> after steel there's you information or way structure can go much higher since sometime language model plus software is that it's the steel for organizations.","startTime":375.68,"endTime":418,"durationSeconds":42,"level":"C1","overallScore":8.8,"rationale":"조직 변화를 강한 비유로 설명해 통찰 큼."},{"segmentIndex":46,"text":"Um designer is the most productive thing are designer and engineer and product people all just sit in the same bucket then work with evals work with experiences and figure out >> inside your company has one of those personas kind of dominated and the other ones falling aside or is there they all kind of do the same thing now >> we always started by like our DNA in the early days always blurry like we are one of the first to hire designer who can code I'm a designer who can code right so we build a company based um my image and my company my co-founder's image so those profile really shines designer who can co- engineer have strong product sense um PMs don't not afraid to roll up sleeve and try things like one of our heaviest token consumption person in the company is a pad for example >> those people really shines and we have quite a few of in the notion >> okay so you read the Dorsy stuff you read the Armstrong stuff my summary of it is they Think of like a big triangle or chart.","startTime":431.44,"endTime":491.599,"durationSeconds":60,"level":"C1","overallScore":9.2,"rationale":"AI 조직 설계 통찰과 실무 표현이 매우 강함."},{"segmentIndex":51,"text":"If some sense we're creating product for other company to do that >> but yourself >> the high premise is similar at least my interpretation of it it's so much knowledge work is paper pushing in the past it's really hard require software to push information from one person another but so much of a knowledge work is fuzzy so human need to be in the middle to pushing information from one to the other and turns out 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week.","startTime":1328.559,"endTime":1336.88,"durationSeconds":8,"level":"C1","overallScore":9,"rationale":"계획과 전략 차이를 통찰적으로 설명."},{"segmentIndex":28,"text":"you like what are you doing then you're not in the war mode right I think notion is for knowledge work which might have a different curve than coding products coding product you run frontier models usually the more the smarter the better um and knowledge work you can we already start to see this you sort of can settle with the second year the Chinese models the open way ones they're not super smart like a lot of this kind of paper pushing information in your company oh I spill coffee on the carpet can HR team come someone to tidy this up next week that doesn't require opus to file tickets right so that's a lot of problem we are best at solving at notion so that will have a different growth margin profile than >> yes >> the biggest product market fit today which is a coding agent >> yes okay you're kind of in my mind the king of refoundings >> you've done it I think twice at least Claude thinks you've done it twice.","startTime":1416.32,"endTime":1478.08,"durationSeconds":62,"level":"C1","overallScore":9,"rationale":"시장·원가·제품 차이를 깊게 풀어냄."},{"segmentIndex":43,"text":"um it's like AI writing product that has a boost but after that we've been pretty much want to build agent product in 2022 end of 2022 and that's a slo that took us a year and a half to really >> didn't really work back then >> didn't work at all like Simon >> I would say my problem and Simon's problem we might be living too much into the future y >> it bites you with new technology like we try everything built a model for us work openai finetuning or another just none of them work that will like a year and a half just go with no error and morale is definitely low only start to work a year and a half our revenue grow inflection this around the same time right when the AI product >> the underlying got better >> yeah it's like um but that was the 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and a two and then 50 tied for third they're way off when you look back in time that the great companies were often founded in shitty times because people who are really grinders and people who really want to start a company and really have a vision didn't start in like 2022 2023 a terrible time to start in times like 2026 you get a lot of tourist entrepreneurs and so I've heard people say you know 2026 ventures is going to be crap even though the valuations are >> like crypto vibe energy >> yeah a little bit >> a little bit um I don't disagree market will do the thing market is kind of beautiful in that way >> yeah advice to founders of reasonable sized companies who are a little scared to refound You know, I I'm CEO of a 500 person company.","startTime":2441.359,"endTime":2502.16,"durationSeconds":61,"level":"C1","overallScore":9,"rationale":"창업·경쟁·시장에 대한 통찰이 풍부."},{"segmentIndex":46,"text":"I have to evolve a lot like I hate doing >> force yourself like how to work a significant other push you >> no I force myself okay um to lead the group of human you need to do one to many communications otherwise people don't trust you they want to hear from you >> writing is one mode which is like sometimes ling num but even more so is face to the all hands so for a while I try to delegate all hand to my co-founders to other exeacts no way I have to now at every all and I'm open the mic.","startTime":2768.8,"endTime":2799.52,"durationSeconds":31,"level":"C1","overallScore":9,"rationale":"리더십 소통 원칙과 실천이 모두 담김."},{"segmentIndex":14,"text":"like um power is this the CEO game is full of that game just like entertainment just like sports you have that like high school college lunch sessions right you watch that in real in the tech scene it also could be a pursuit of your personal values this is something I realized more in the past three four years it's like I need to be in equilibrium with my own value of what this company I want to build with that give me more gen more sustainable energy source.","startTime":3074.4,"endTime":3109.119,"durationSeconds":35,"level":"C1","overallScore":8.8,"rationale":"CEO 역할과 가치의 균형 통찰이 큼."},{"segmentIndex":32,"text":"If we because notion sales could start earlier but we want to first principle our way into it which is we're going to design our own system that doesn't work like again it's a reflection of human nature a lot of things you want to talk to a seller there's a lot of the reason the modern sales playbook has been around for twoish decades right so >> I think enterprise sales is like the last function like >> I agree with you it's like that you want to see a human you feel comfortable >> you don't want to have be a doctor from a robot?","startTime":3232.72,"endTime":3263.76,"durationSeconds":31,"level":"C1","overallScore":8.8,"rationale":"판매 본질을 인간 심리로 풀어 설명."},{"segmentIndex":38,"text":"May that's but that's the thing made hotspot right like this inbound >> that was the thing >> you should only have each company should only preserve your innovation point to few places go a couple places you cannot spread everywhere like otherwise you're spread too thin you're like you're trying to like reinvent the wheel well too many times we try to put our in innovation point onto sales back then just go classic sales it works um but you and make a lot more efficient today with a lot of tools we're building internally.","startTime":3290.72,"endTime":3323.839,"durationSeconds":33,"level":"C1","overallScore":9,"rationale":"혁신 자원 배분 원칙이 매우 선명함."},{"segmentIndex":14,"text":"the new way that Dorsy described and I didn't quite get into it with Ivan but I suspect it's similar is it's a circle and in the middle is all of the context in the AI system and initially humans are making all the decisions but over time as you give that kind of centralized AI system more context it gets smarter and you're feeding in context and you turn over more and more of the decisions to them I don't think it happens overnight I think it's gradual but it's an IT task to get it right you have to be legible.","startTime":3702,"endTime":3731.28,"durationSeconds":29,"level":"C1","overallScore":9,"rationale":"새 조직 모델 설명이 깊고 표현도 풍부함."},{"segmentIndex":9,"text":"After that, they got product market fit and it really took off. He did the same thing in 2023 around generative AI in an offsite down in Cancun and literally restarted the company and in my mind he's the canonical example of how a SAS company can move and become an AI company.","startTime":64,"endTime":82.799,"durationSeconds":19,"level":"C1","overallScore":8,"rationale":"전환 서사와 비즈니스 표현이 풍부함."},{"segmentIndex":39,"text":"Um so we have been very small from the get-go and we sort of taste the sweet of it because it's you're small you're profitable easier to raise money you're default alive and um we've been resisting growing team size and during co a lot of companies really blew up remember that right >> I'm sure you did >> we relatively yeah blew up >> you got to product market fit at the right time >> we grow to product market around the same time um there's a lot of eyes that you got to grow so we did grow um relative to other company still resistant to grow a lot uh in terms of headcount.","startTime":251.439,"endTime":285.199,"durationSeconds":34,"level":"C1","overallScore":8.2,"rationale":"성장 전략 통찰과 실무 표현이 매우 풍부."},{"segmentIndex":49,"text":"Basically stick AI in the middle and start delegating more and more over time and letting the system make decisions and feeding it context in good ways.","startTime":499.36,"endTime":506.16,"durationSeconds":7,"level":"C1","overallScore":8,"rationale":"AI 중심 조직 원리를 압축해 표현함."}],"generatedAt":"2026-06-24T23:44:11.838Z","keyClipsTotalSec":1503},{"videoId":"ill76IbVuM8","chunkIndex":3,"totalChunks":7,"title":"Notion’s Ivan Zhao: The Refounder — Part 4 of 7","thumbnail":"https://i.ytimg.com/vi/ill76IbVuM8/maxresdefault.jpg","duration":3786,"uploader":"Sequoia Capital","youtubeUrl":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ill76IbVuM8","keywords":["startup","founder-story","product-strategy","artificial-intelligence","language-models","company-culture","leadership","innovation","business"],"normalizedKeywords":["비즈니스·전략","프로덕트","리더십·매니지먼트"],"targetAudience":[{"who":"창업자","why":"회사를 리포지셔닝하거나 다시 세우는 판단 기준을 얻을 수 있음"},{"who":"프로덕트 리더","why":"AI 시대에 제품을 어떻게 다시 설계해야 하는지 감을 잡을 수 있음"},{"who":"스타트업 팀원","why":"성장 정체기와 조직 경직을 어떻게 풀어야 하는지 배울 수 있음"}],"normalizedAudience":["창업자·스타트업","프로덕트 매니저·기획자","지식노동자 일반"],"summary":"이 영상은 Notion의 Ivan Zhao가 'refounding'을 주제로, 회사가 정체되거나 기술 패러다임이 바뀔 때 창업자가 왜 스스로를 다시 설계해야 하는지 이야기한다. 그는 기술 업계가 과거의 역사와 인간적 맥락을 잃고 '그냥 만드는 문화'에 갇혀 있다고 비판하면서, 좋은 창업자는 기술을 인간과 연결하는 관점, 그리고 과거의 선구자들로부터 배우는 태도를 가져야 한다고 말한다.\n\n또한 회사가 사이드웨이로 가는 시점에 내면의 신호를 무시하지 말고 과감히 축소·전환해야 한다고 조언한다. Notion이 AI 전환을 추진할 때도 초반엔 성과가 거의 없고 고통스러운 재구축의 기간이 있었지만, 창업자가 제품을 직접 느끼고 내부적으로 여러 번 시도한 끝에 새로운 길을 찾았다고 설명한다. 마지막으로 조직이 커질수록 경직되기 쉬우므로, 인수합병과 창업자 중심의 자율성을 통해 계속 '탈경직'해야 한다는 메시지를 강조한다.","insights":["기술은 과거를 잊을수록 얕아지고 인간성을 잃는다.","회사가 옆으로 새면, 더 오래 버티기보다 재설계가 낫다.","새 기술은 읽는 것이 아니라 직접 써보며 체득해야 한다.","AI 전환은 단기 성과보다 제품 감각의 재학습이 핵심이다.","조직의 경직은 창업자 자율성과 외부 인수로 풀 수 있다."],"keyClips":[{"clipId":"ill76IbVuM8:c3:6-13","startSegmentIndex":6,"endSegmentIndex":13,"startTime":1837.279,"endTime":1943.76,"durationSeconds":106.5,"preview":"기술의 역사와 인간성","mustSee":false},{"clipId":"ill76IbVuM8:c3:14-25","startSegmentIndex":14,"endSegmentIndex":25,"startTime":1943.76,"endTime":2025.279,"durationSeconds":81.5,"preview":"사이드웨이 회사의 결단","mustSee":false},{"clipId":"ill76IbVuM8:c3:33-43","startSegmentIndex":33,"endSegmentIndex":43,"startTime":2055.119,"endTime":2207.28,"durationSeconds":152.2,"preview":"AI 전환의 고통","mustSee":true},{"clipId":"ill76IbVuM8:c3:45-54","startSegmentIndex":45,"endSegmentIndex":54,"startTime":2218.72,"endTime":2334.56,"durationSeconds":115.8,"preview":"제품부터 다시 만들기","mustSee":true},{"clipId":"ill76IbVuM8:c3:55-64","startSegmentIndex":55,"endSegmentIndex":64,"startTime":2334.56,"endTime":2396,"durationSeconds":61.4,"preview":"조직을 다시 덜 굳게","mustSee":false}],"curatedSegments":[{"segmentIndex":42,"text":"Now the thing changed in the past three years since we're building with AI like we're one of the earlier um adopter of language modeling or product and you start think things are breaking building with this new technology the classic boundary between rows doesn't quite work the analogy I like to use back then it still is like building classic software is like engineer bridge if you can design it you usually can build it fairly predictable um like product manager talk to customers pass to designer pass to engineers right building with language model back then and somewhat still is it's like brewing beer >> you can't truly predict the things the underlying thing good analogy you cannot tell the east hey guys go towards that flavor profile more you can't do that right you sort of have to throw your best people in there >> see what the model see what technology gives you so it's not customer first it's more experiment with this technology first.","startTime":356.15999999999997,"endTime":375.68,"durationSeconds":20,"level":"C1","overallScore":10,"rationale":"AI 개발 본질을 비유로 풀어 통찰 최고급."},{"segmentIndex":12,"text":"A talent equal to this person's capability s experience times this person's um taste or value system times this person's um agency will right um what language model change is like just like Google everybody can access information language model allow everybody to be a pretty good writer and programmer so capability got normalized democratized and taste becomes still important like what's your value system what do you want to bring to the world which direction do you want to that you cannot change as easily and you will how hard do you work this you cannot change so we optimize for the latter to today >> okay >> that means in engineer science we're hired for much younger people okay >> internally we're call like IC early out of school IC >> this is the opposite of the way most of the CEOs I'm interviewing are going it's interesting >> I think more people are thrilled >> they say that like a junior engineer powered by the stuff's more productive but if you got a senior engineer that understands the whole system been there a while and they're pled they're like a 100x. >> Yes.","startTime":691.68,"endTime":751.12,"durationSeconds":59,"level":"C1","overallScore":9.8,"rationale":"AI 시대 인재 기준 변화 통찰이 깊음."},{"segmentIndex":54,"text":"you have to do that because like at the end of the day business are kind of like pathf finding entities right like we're in this thing called a market there's equilibrium for your company with the market with your shareholder with your company like we're just finding local optimas local maximums for different our niches when this new brand new ingredient got introduced into the market in this case language model doors are path that are opened up and we are Each company at different point in the market each you have different angle you have different niche you have to taking this internalize this new ingredient figure out which path got opened for you the truth is with the customer with yourself if you don't know how this can do you cannot find a new path I think you have to do something you have to feel this you feel the AI feel AGI >> I think you're right you use a word that I cringe at but I think is good called a lot of companies calcify as they get older.","startTime":2273.839,"endTime":2334.56,"durationSeconds":61,"level":"C2","overallScore":10,"rationale":"시장·탐색 비유와 표현 가치가 최고 수준."},{"segmentIndex":40,"text":"Um but that's the moment I sort of learned oh you need to delegate need to have introduced in professional manager management >> why who is telling you that >> it's a good question who te tell us some investors you didn't tell me that I don't think so uh >> it was conventional wisdom amongst the investor class >> I would say there's a pro and con for that like we sort of eyes resist that for a long time so we did not build a sales team in retrospect I should have started sales team earlier because I thought I can first principle the whole way like create new kind of PLG some kind of brand new motion that's a mistake um the other part is product marketing engineer those functions sort of I wouldn't call mistake but we're upping the traditional way of building it >> did you hire been there done that people in that phase >> we did >> and do you have any of them still >> um many of them are still with us yeah our CTO it's last three years before that there's another CTO during that 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>> we always started by like our DNA in the early days always blurry like we are one of the first to hire designer who can code I'm a designer who can code right so we build a company based um my image and my company my co-founder's image so those profile really shines designer who can co- engineer have strong product sense um PMs don't not afraid to roll up sleeve and try things like one of our heaviest token consumption person in the company is a pad for example >> those people really shines and we have quite a few of in the notion >> okay so you read the Dorsy stuff you read the Armstrong stuff my summary of it is they Think of like a big triangle or chart.","startTime":431.44,"endTime":491.599,"durationSeconds":60,"level":"C1","overallScore":9.2,"rationale":"AI 조직 설계 통찰과 실무 표현이 매우 강함."},{"segmentIndex":51,"text":"If some sense we're creating product for other company to do that >> but yourself >> the high premise is similar at least my interpretation of it it's so much knowledge work is paper pushing in the past it's really hard require software to push information from one person another but so much of a knowledge work is fuzzy so human need to be in the middle to pushing information from one to the other and turns out language model can do really good at two things one thing is to write the software to design the perfect pipes for your company to pushing information and decisions.","startTime":515.919,"endTime":548.88,"durationSeconds":33,"level":"C1","overallScore":9,"rationale":"지식노동 재구성 논리를 잘 설명한 핵심 문장."},{"segmentIndex":44,"text":"It's a community where as part of a community ecosystem uh or organization which is startup where is one of our most important communities um notion fans around the world and figure out how does this to move our market through those people right um that's the bucket of people >> and has the criteria changed sales marketing all the different other functions have you changed the way you think about the hire like most companies have a form when you interview someone has that form >> change we're actually in the middle of I just described engineer one right engineer designer it's the we changed two years ago yes um go to markets marketing would change no six monthsish ago sales were changing right now >> and when you hire a sales rep they have to be AI >> pil yes there we're actually changed our first interview no longer look at your resume build something for us send a notion link send something that you built we look at what you built How about compensation?","startTime":1008.48,"endTime":1070.16,"durationSeconds":62,"level":"C1","overallScore":9,"rationale":"채용 평가 방식 변화가 매우 구체적임."},{"segmentIndex":17,"text":"So um I would say the financial planning is still at least I find useful to give you a like you know you're on a treadmill you know how fast you're running right that's like a financial plan in my mind it's like oh am I running seven eight one nine what number that is but product strategy it's oh there's no freaking plan no plan uh because what changes the market the technology is so fast it's not in the six month it's not three months It's week by week.","startTime":1328.559,"endTime":1336.88,"durationSeconds":8,"level":"C1","overallScore":9,"rationale":"계획과 전략 차이를 통찰적으로 설명."},{"segmentIndex":28,"text":"you like what are you doing then you're not in the war mode right I think notion is for knowledge work which might have a different curve than coding products coding product you run frontier models usually the more the smarter the better um and knowledge work you can we already start to see this you sort of can settle with the second year the Chinese models the open way ones they're not super smart like a lot of this kind of paper pushing information in your company oh I spill coffee on the carpet can HR team come someone to tidy this up next week that doesn't require opus to file tickets right so that's a lot of problem we are best at solving at notion so that will have a different growth margin profile than >> yes >> the biggest product market fit today which is a coding agent >> yes okay you're kind of in my mind the king of refoundings >> you've done it I think twice at least Claude thinks you've done it twice.","startTime":1416.32,"endTime":1478.08,"durationSeconds":62,"level":"C1","overallScore":9,"rationale":"시장·원가·제품 차이를 깊게 풀어냄."},{"segmentIndex":43,"text":"um it's like AI writing product that has a boost but after that we've been pretty much want to build agent product in 2022 end of 2022 and that's a slo that took us a year and a half to really >> didn't really work back then >> didn't work at all like Simon >> I would say my problem and Simon's problem we might be living too much into the future y >> it bites you with new technology like we try everything built a model for us work openai finetuning or another just none of them work that will like a year and a half just go with no error and morale is definitely low only start to work a year and a half our revenue grow inflection this around the same time right when the AI product >> the underlying got better >> yeah it's like um but that was the that was a pretty painful period >> was that the most painful period in notion history for you >> different type of pain >> what was the most painful just when those two three early days pre-product market fit is despair I just like >> despair is that the word okay >> you don't know where it's coming from you don't know where to go right um when your growth rate low like during that period of time where we were try to rebuilding our AI foundation multiple times it's yeah that's not great um right now just everything on fire it's a different type of pain Nice.","startTime":2118.4,"endTime":2207.28,"durationSeconds":89,"level":"C1","overallScore":9,"rationale":"실패·절망·회복을 담은 고밀도 통찰."},{"segmentIndex":7,"text":"has never been harder to scale because like in every little micro segment if there's a little traction like there's hundred competitors two days later and the thing I've also noticed about the startup land is almost in every one of these verticals it's a duopoly there's like a one and a two and then 50 tied for third they're way off when you look back in time that the great companies were often founded in shitty times because people who are really grinders and people who really want to start a company and really have a vision didn't start in like 2022 2023 a terrible time to start in times like 2026 you get a lot of tourist entrepreneurs and so I've heard people say you know 2026 ventures is going to be crap even though the valuations are >> like crypto vibe energy >> yeah a little bit >> a little bit um I don't disagree market will do the thing market is kind of beautiful in that way >> yeah advice to founders of reasonable sized companies who are a little scared to refound You know, I I'm CEO of a 500 person company.","startTime":2441.359,"endTime":2502.16,"durationSeconds":61,"level":"C1","overallScore":9,"rationale":"창업·경쟁·시장에 대한 통찰이 풍부."},{"segmentIndex":46,"text":"I have to evolve a lot like I hate doing >> force yourself like how to work a significant other push you >> no I force myself okay um to lead the group of human you need to do one to many communications otherwise people don't trust you they want to hear from you >> writing is one mode which is like sometimes ling num but even more so is face to the all hands so for a while I try to delegate all hand to my co-founders to other exeacts no way I have to now at every all and I'm open the mic.","startTime":2768.8,"endTime":2799.52,"durationSeconds":31,"level":"C1","overallScore":9,"rationale":"리더십 소통 원칙과 실천이 모두 담김."},{"segmentIndex":14,"text":"like um power is this the CEO game is full of that game just like entertainment just like sports you have that like high school college lunch sessions right you watch that in real in the tech scene it also could be a pursuit of your personal values this is something I realized more in the past three four years it's like I need to be in equilibrium with my own value of what this company I want to build with that give me more gen more sustainable energy source.","startTime":3074.4,"endTime":3109.119,"durationSeconds":35,"level":"C1","overallScore":8.8,"rationale":"CEO 역할과 가치의 균형 통찰이 큼."},{"segmentIndex":32,"text":"If we because notion sales could start earlier but we want to first principle our way into it which is we're going to design our own system that doesn't work like again it's a reflection of human nature a lot of things you want to talk to a seller there's a lot of the reason the modern sales playbook has been around for twoish decades right so >> I think enterprise sales is like the last function like >> I agree with you it's like that you want to see a human you feel comfortable >> you don't want to have be a doctor from a robot?","startTime":3232.72,"endTime":3263.76,"durationSeconds":31,"level":"C1","overallScore":8.8,"rationale":"판매 본질을 인간 심리로 풀어 설명."},{"segmentIndex":38,"text":"May that's but that's the thing made hotspot right like this inbound >> that was the thing >> you should only have each company should only preserve your innovation point to few places go a couple places you cannot spread everywhere like otherwise you're spread too thin you're like you're trying to like reinvent the wheel well too many times we try to put our in innovation point onto sales back then just go classic sales it works um but you and make a lot more efficient today with a lot of tools we're building internally.","startTime":3290.72,"endTime":3323.839,"durationSeconds":33,"level":"C1","overallScore":9,"rationale":"혁신 자원 배분 원칙이 매우 선명함."},{"segmentIndex":14,"text":"the new way that Dorsy described and I didn't quite get into it with Ivan but I suspect it's similar is it's a circle and in the middle is all of the context in the AI system and initially humans are making all the decisions but over time as you give that kind of centralized AI system more context it gets smarter and you're feeding in context and you turn over more and more of the decisions to them I don't think it happens overnight I think it's gradual but it's an IT task to get it right you have to be legible.","startTime":3702,"endTime":3731.28,"durationSeconds":29,"level":"C1","overallScore":9,"rationale":"새 조직 모델 설명이 깊고 표현도 풍부함."},{"segmentIndex":9,"text":"After that, they got product market fit and it really took off. He did the same thing in 2023 around generative AI in an offsite down in Cancun and literally restarted the company and in my mind he's the canonical example of how a SAS company can move and become an AI company.","startTime":64,"endTime":82.799,"durationSeconds":19,"level":"C1","overallScore":8,"rationale":"전환 서사와 비즈니스 표현이 풍부함."},{"segmentIndex":39,"text":"Um so we have been very small from the get-go and we sort of taste the sweet of it because it's you're small you're profitable easier to raise money you're default alive and um we've been resisting growing team size and during co a lot of companies really blew up remember that right >> I'm sure you did >> we relatively yeah blew up >> you got to product market fit at the right time >> we grow to product market around the same time um there's a lot of eyes that you got to grow so we did grow um relative to other company still resistant to grow a lot uh in terms of headcount.","startTime":251.439,"endTime":285.199,"durationSeconds":34,"level":"C1","overallScore":8.2,"rationale":"성장 전략 통찰과 실무 표현이 매우 풍부."},{"segmentIndex":49,"text":"Basically stick AI in the middle and start delegating more and more over time and letting the system make decisions and feeding it context in good ways.","startTime":499.36,"endTime":506.16,"durationSeconds":7,"level":"C1","overallScore":8,"rationale":"AI 중심 조직 원리를 압축해 표현함."}],"generatedAt":"2026-06-24T23:44:41.667Z","keyClipsTotalSec":1503},{"videoId":"ill76IbVuM8","chunkIndex":4,"totalChunks":7,"title":"Notion’s Ivan Zhao: The Refounder — Part 5 of 7","thumbnail":"https://i.ytimg.com/vi/ill76IbVuM8/maxresdefault.jpg","duration":3786,"uploader":"Sequoia Capital","youtubeUrl":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ill76IbVuM8","keywords":["startup","leadership","ai","knowledge-work","organization-design","founder-life","management","productivity","business","technology"],"normalizedKeywords":["리더십·매니지먼트","비즈니스·전략","기술 트렌드"],"targetAudience":[{"who":"창업자","why":"AI 시대에 조직을 어떻게 재설계하고 리더십을 유지할지 배울 수 있음"},{"who":"중견회사 CEO","why":"기존 회사를 'refound'해야 할지 판단하는 관점을 얻을 수 있음"},{"who":"지식노동자","why":"AI가 의사결정과 협업 방식을 어떻게 바꾸는지 이해하는 데 유용함"}],"normalizedAudience":["창업자·스타트업","지식노동자 일반"],"summary":"이 영상은 AI 시대에 스타트업과 기존 회사가 어떻게 바뀌는지, 그리고 리더가 어떤 방식으로 조직을 다시 설계해야 하는지를 중심으로 대화한다. 화자는 지금은 시작(startup)은 더 쉬워졌지만, 작은 시장에서도 경쟁자가 급격히 늘어 스케일링은 오히려 더 어려워졌다고 본다. 동시에 조직은 완전히 평평해지기보다 인간 본성과 법적 현실 때문에 여전히 작은 팀·계층 구조를 유지할 가능성이 높다고 설명하며, AI는 그 안에서 점점 더 많은 의사결정을 맡게 될 것이라고 말한다.\n\n후반부에서는 소프트하게 말하는 내향형 창업자가 어떻게 회사 전체를 이끄는 커뮤니케이션을 훈련하는지, 올핸즈와 AMA를 어떻게 운영하는지, 그리고 자신의 하루를 어떤 블록으로 관리하는지까지 꽤 실용적으로 공유한다. 결국 메시지는 'AI가 모든 걸 대체한다'가 아니라, 인간이 여전히 책임지고 방향과 맥락을 제공하되, 정보와 결정의 흐름을 더 잘 설계해야 한다는 데 있다.","insights":["시작은 쉬워졌지만 스케일은 더 어려워졌다.","AI는 인간을 대체하기보다 의사결정 비중을 넓힌다.","조직은 기술보다 인간 본성과 법적 현실에 묶인다.","내향형 리더도 반복 훈련으로 대중 커뮤니케이션을 배울 수 있다.","좋은 리더십은 일정 관리보다 에너지 배치에서 갈린다."],"keyClips":[{"clipId":"ill76IbVuM8:c4:6-10","startSegmentIndex":6,"endSegmentIndex":10,"startTime":2436.96,"endTime":2529.44,"durationSeconds":92.5,"preview":"시작은 쉽고 스케일은 어렵다","mustSee":false},{"clipId":"ill76IbVuM8:c4:14-29","startSegmentIndex":14,"endSegmentIndex":29,"startTime":2540.72,"endTime":2671.599,"durationSeconds":130.9,"preview":"AI 조직의 본질","mustSee":true},{"clipId":"ill76IbVuM8:c4:33-40","startSegmentIndex":33,"endSegmentIndex":40,"startTime":2687.28,"endTime":2734.8,"durationSeconds":47.5,"preview":"지식노동의 재발견","mustSee":false},{"clipId":"ill76IbVuM8:c4:41-60","startSegmentIndex":41,"endSegmentIndex":60,"startTime":2734.8,"endTime":2887.599,"durationSeconds":152.8,"preview":"내향형 리더의 훈련","mustSee":true},{"clipId":"ill76IbVuM8:c4:61-80","startSegmentIndex":61,"endSegmentIndex":80,"startTime":2887.599,"endTime":3006.16,"durationSeconds":118.6,"preview":"리더의 하루 설계","mustSee":false}],"curatedSegments":[{"segmentIndex":42,"text":"Now the thing changed in the past three years since we're building with AI like we're one of the earlier um adopter of language modeling or product and you start think things are breaking building with this new technology the classic boundary between rows doesn't quite work the analogy I like to use back then it still is like building classic software is like engineer bridge if you can design it you usually can build it fairly predictable um like product manager talk to customers pass to designer pass to engineers right building with language model back then and somewhat still is it's like brewing beer >> you can't truly predict the things the underlying thing good analogy you cannot tell the east hey guys go towards that flavor profile more you can't do that right you sort of have to throw your best people in there >> see what the model see what technology gives you so it's not customer first it's more experiment with this technology first.","startTime":356.15999999999997,"endTime":375.68,"durationSeconds":20,"level":"C1","overallScore":10,"rationale":"AI 개발 본질을 비유로 풀어 통찰 최고급."},{"segmentIndex":12,"text":"A talent equal to this person's capability s experience times this person's um taste or value system times this person's um agency will right um what language model change is like just like Google everybody can access information language model allow everybody to be a pretty good writer and programmer so capability got normalized democratized and taste becomes still important like what's your value system what do you want to bring to the world which direction do you want to that you cannot change as easily and you will how hard do you work this you cannot change so we optimize for the latter to today >> okay >> that means in engineer science we're hired for much younger people okay >> internally we're call like IC early out of school IC >> this is the opposite of the way most of the CEOs I'm interviewing are going it's interesting >> I think more people are thrilled >> they say that like a junior engineer powered by the stuff's more productive but if you got a senior engineer that understands the whole system been there a while and they're pled they're like a 100x. >> Yes.","startTime":691.68,"endTime":751.12,"durationSeconds":59,"level":"C1","overallScore":9.8,"rationale":"AI 시대 인재 기준 변화 통찰이 깊음."},{"segmentIndex":54,"text":"you have to do that because like at the end of the day business are kind of like pathf finding entities right like we're in this thing called a market there's equilibrium for your company with the market with your shareholder with your company like we're just finding local optimas local maximums for different our niches when this new brand new ingredient got introduced into the market in this case language model doors are path that are opened up and we are Each company at different point in the market each you have different angle you have different niche you have to taking this internalize this new ingredient figure out which path got opened for you the truth is with the customer with yourself if you don't know how this can do you cannot find a new path I think you have to do something you have to feel this you feel the AI feel AGI >> I think you're right you use a word that I cringe at but I think is good called a lot of companies calcify as they get older.","startTime":2273.839,"endTime":2334.56,"durationSeconds":61,"level":"C2","overallScore":10,"rationale":"시장·탐색 비유와 표현 가치가 최고 수준."},{"segmentIndex":40,"text":"Um but that's the moment I sort of learned oh you need to delegate need to have introduced in professional manager management >> why who is telling you that >> it's a good question who te tell us some investors you didn't tell me that I don't think so uh >> it was conventional wisdom amongst the investor class >> I would say there's a pro and con for that like we sort of eyes resist that for a long time so we did not build a sales team in retrospect I should have started sales team earlier because I thought I can first principle the whole way like create new kind of PLG some kind of brand new motion that's a mistake um the other part is product marketing engineer those functions sort of I wouldn't call mistake but we're upping the traditional way of building it >> did you hire been there done that people in that phase >> we did >> and do you have any of them still >> um many of them are still with us yeah our CTO it's last three years before that there's another CTO during that phase.","startTime":285.199,"endTime":348.08,"durationSeconds":63,"level":"C1","overallScore":9.2,"rationale":"위임·채용 반성 통찰과 표현이 아주 강함."},{"segmentIndex":43,"text":"The analogy I like to use, we've been using somewhat is like before steel buildings cannot be higher than five six floors and New York City are largely six floor tall iron and stones and bricks >> after steel there's you information or way structure can go much higher since sometime language model plus software is that it's the steel for organizations.","startTime":375.68,"endTime":418,"durationSeconds":42,"level":"C1","overallScore":8.8,"rationale":"조직 변화를 강한 비유로 설명해 통찰 큼."},{"segmentIndex":46,"text":"Um designer is the most productive thing are designer and engineer and product people all just sit in the same bucket then work with evals work with experiences and figure out >> inside your company has one of those personas kind of dominated and the other ones falling aside or is there they all kind of do the same thing now >> we always started by like our DNA in the early days always blurry like we are one of the first to hire designer who can code I'm a designer who can code right so we build a company based um my image and my company my co-founder's image so those profile really shines designer who can co- engineer have strong product sense um PMs don't not afraid to roll up sleeve and try things like one of our heaviest token consumption person in the company is a pad for example >> those people really shines and we have quite a few of in the notion >> okay so you read the Dorsy stuff you read the Armstrong stuff my summary of it is they Think of like a big triangle or chart.","startTime":431.44,"endTime":491.599,"durationSeconds":60,"level":"C1","overallScore":9.2,"rationale":"AI 조직 설계 통찰과 실무 표현이 매우 강함."},{"segmentIndex":51,"text":"If some sense we're creating product for other company to do that >> but yourself >> the high premise is similar at least my interpretation of it it's so much knowledge work is paper pushing in the past it's really hard require software to push information from one person another but so much of a knowledge work is fuzzy so human need to be in the middle to pushing information from one to the other and turns out language model can do really good at two things one thing is to write the software to design the perfect pipes for your company to pushing information and decisions.","startTime":515.919,"endTime":548.88,"durationSeconds":33,"level":"C1","overallScore":9,"rationale":"지식노동 재구성 논리를 잘 설명한 핵심 문장."},{"segmentIndex":44,"text":"It's a community where as part of a community ecosystem uh or organization which is startup where is one of our most important communities um notion fans around the world and figure out how does this to move our market through those people right um that's the bucket of people >> and has the criteria changed sales marketing all the different other functions have you changed the way you think about the hire like most companies have a form when you interview someone has that form >> change we're actually in the middle of I just described engineer one right engineer designer it's the we changed two years ago yes um go to markets marketing would change no six monthsish ago sales were changing right now >> and when you hire a sales rep they have to be AI >> pil yes there we're actually changed our first interview no longer look at your resume build something for us send a notion link send something that you built we look at what you built How about compensation?","startTime":1008.48,"endTime":1070.16,"durationSeconds":62,"level":"C1","overallScore":9,"rationale":"채용 평가 방식 변화가 매우 구체적임."},{"segmentIndex":17,"text":"So um I would say the financial planning is still at least I find useful to give you a like you know you're on a treadmill you know how fast you're running right that's like a financial plan in my mind it's like oh am I running seven eight one nine what number that is but product strategy it's oh there's no freaking plan no plan uh because what changes the market the technology is so fast it's not in the six month it's not three months It's week by week.","startTime":1328.559,"endTime":1336.88,"durationSeconds":8,"level":"C1","overallScore":9,"rationale":"계획과 전략 차이를 통찰적으로 설명."},{"segmentIndex":28,"text":"you like what are you doing then you're not in the war mode right I think notion is for knowledge work which might have a different curve than coding products coding product you run frontier models usually the more the smarter the better um and knowledge work you can we already start to see this you sort of can settle with the second year the Chinese models the open way ones they're not super smart like a lot of this kind of paper pushing information in your company oh I spill coffee on the carpet can HR team come someone to tidy this up next week that doesn't require opus to file tickets right so that's a lot of problem we are best at solving at notion so that will have a different growth margin profile than >> yes >> the biggest product market fit today which is a coding agent >> yes okay you're kind of in my mind the king of refoundings >> you've done it I think twice at least Claude thinks you've done it twice.","startTime":1416.32,"endTime":1478.08,"durationSeconds":62,"level":"C1","overallScore":9,"rationale":"시장·원가·제품 차이를 깊게 풀어냄."},{"segmentIndex":43,"text":"um it's like AI writing product that has a boost but after that we've been pretty much want to build agent product in 2022 end of 2022 and that's a slo that took us a year and a half to really >> didn't really work back then >> didn't work at all like Simon >> I would say my problem and Simon's problem we might be living too much into the future y >> it bites you with new technology like we try everything built a model for us work openai finetuning or another just none of them work that will like a year and a half just go with no error and morale is definitely low only start to work a year and a half our revenue grow inflection this around the same time right when the AI product >> the underlying got better >> yeah it's like um but that was the that was a pretty painful period >> was that the most painful period in notion history for you >> different type of pain >> what was the most painful just when those two three early days pre-product market fit is despair I just like >> despair is that the word okay >> you don't know where it's coming from you don't know where to go right um when your growth rate low like during that period of time where we were try to rebuilding our AI foundation multiple times it's yeah that's not great um right now just everything on fire it's a different type of pain Nice.","startTime":2118.4,"endTime":2207.28,"durationSeconds":89,"level":"C1","overallScore":9,"rationale":"실패·절망·회복을 담은 고밀도 통찰."},{"segmentIndex":7,"text":"has never been harder to scale because like in every little micro segment if there's a little traction like there's hundred competitors two days later and the thing I've also noticed about the startup land is almost in every one of these verticals it's a duopoly there's like a one and a two and then 50 tied for third they're way off when you look back in time that the great companies were often founded in shitty times because people who are really grinders and people who really want to start a company and really have a vision didn't start in like 2022 2023 a terrible time to start in times like 2026 you get a lot of tourist entrepreneurs and so I've heard people say you know 2026 ventures is going to be crap even though the valuations are >> like crypto vibe energy >> yeah a little bit >> a little bit um I don't disagree market will do the thing market is kind of beautiful in that way >> yeah advice to founders of reasonable sized companies who are a little scared to refound You know, I I'm CEO of a 500 person company.","startTime":2441.359,"endTime":2502.16,"durationSeconds":61,"level":"C1","overallScore":9,"rationale":"창업·경쟁·시장에 대한 통찰이 풍부."},{"segmentIndex":46,"text":"I have to evolve a lot like I hate doing >> force yourself like how to work a significant other push you >> no I force myself okay um to lead the group of human you need to do one to many communications otherwise people don't trust you they want to hear from you >> writing is one mode which is like sometimes ling num but even more so is face to the all hands so for a while I try to delegate all hand to my co-founders to other exeacts no way I have to now at every all and I'm open the mic.","startTime":2768.8,"endTime":2799.52,"durationSeconds":31,"level":"C1","overallScore":9,"rationale":"리더십 소통 원칙과 실천이 모두 담김."},{"segmentIndex":14,"text":"like um power is this the CEO game is full of that game just like entertainment just like sports you have that like high school college lunch sessions right you watch that in real in the tech scene it also could be a pursuit of your personal values this is something I realized more in the past three four years it's like I need to be in equilibrium with my own value of what this company I want to build with that give me more gen more sustainable energy source.","startTime":3074.4,"endTime":3109.119,"durationSeconds":35,"level":"C1","overallScore":8.8,"rationale":"CEO 역할과 가치의 균형 통찰이 큼."},{"segmentIndex":32,"text":"If we because notion sales could start earlier but we want to first principle our way into it which is we're going to design our own system that doesn't work like again it's a reflection of human nature a lot of things you want to talk to a seller there's a lot of the reason the modern sales playbook has been around for twoish decades right so >> I think enterprise sales is like the last function like >> I agree with you it's like that you want to see a human you feel comfortable >> you don't want to have be a doctor from a robot?","startTime":3232.72,"endTime":3263.76,"durationSeconds":31,"level":"C1","overallScore":8.8,"rationale":"판매 본질을 인간 심리로 풀어 설명."},{"segmentIndex":38,"text":"May that's but that's the thing made hotspot right like this inbound >> that was the thing >> you should only have each company should only preserve your innovation point to few places go a couple places you cannot spread everywhere like otherwise you're spread too thin you're like you're trying to like reinvent the wheel well too many times we try to put our in innovation point onto sales back then just go classic sales it works um but you and make a lot more efficient today with a lot of tools we're building internally.","startTime":3290.72,"endTime":3323.839,"durationSeconds":33,"level":"C1","overallScore":9,"rationale":"혁신 자원 배분 원칙이 매우 선명함."},{"segmentIndex":14,"text":"the new way that Dorsy described and I didn't quite get into it with Ivan but I suspect it's similar is it's a circle and in the middle is all of the context in the AI system and initially humans are making all the decisions but over time as you give that kind of centralized AI system more context it gets smarter and you're feeding in context and you turn over more and more of the decisions to them I don't think it happens overnight I think it's gradual but it's an IT task to get it right you have to be legible.","startTime":3702,"endTime":3731.28,"durationSeconds":29,"level":"C1","overallScore":9,"rationale":"새 조직 모델 설명이 깊고 표현도 풍부함."},{"segmentIndex":9,"text":"After that, they got product market fit and it really took off. He did the same thing in 2023 around generative AI in an offsite down in Cancun and literally restarted the company and in my mind he's the canonical example of how a SAS company can move and become an AI company.","startTime":64,"endTime":82.799,"durationSeconds":19,"level":"C1","overallScore":8,"rationale":"전환 서사와 비즈니스 표현이 풍부함."},{"segmentIndex":39,"text":"Um so we have been very small from the get-go and we sort of taste the sweet of it because it's you're small you're profitable easier to raise money you're default alive and um we've been resisting growing team size and during co a lot of companies really blew up remember that right >> I'm sure you did >> we relatively yeah blew up >> you got to product market fit at the right time >> we grow to product market around the same time um there's a lot of eyes that you got to grow so we did grow um relative to other company still resistant to grow a lot uh in terms of headcount.","startTime":251.439,"endTime":285.199,"durationSeconds":34,"level":"C1","overallScore":8.2,"rationale":"성장 전략 통찰과 실무 표현이 매우 풍부."},{"segmentIndex":49,"text":"Basically stick AI in the middle and start delegating more and more over time and letting the system make decisions and feeding it context in good ways.","startTime":499.36,"endTime":506.16,"durationSeconds":7,"level":"C1","overallScore":8,"rationale":"AI 중심 조직 원리를 압축해 표현함."}],"generatedAt":"2026-06-24T23:44:58.020Z","keyClipsTotalSec":1503},{"videoId":"ill76IbVuM8","chunkIndex":5,"totalChunks":7,"title":"Notion’s Ivan Zhao: The Refounder — Part 6 of 7","thumbnail":"https://i.ytimg.com/vi/ill76IbVuM8/maxresdefault.jpg","duration":3786,"uploader":"Sequoia Capital","youtubeUrl":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ill76IbVuM8","keywords":["startup","founder-led","leadership","enterprise-sales","company-culture","product-strategy","business","values","communication"],"normalizedKeywords":["비즈니스·전략","리더십·매니지먼트","커리어·성장"],"targetAudience":[{"who":"초기~중기 창업자","why":"회사를 키우는 과정에서 리더십, 세일즈, 문화 설계를 함께 배울 수 있음"},{"who":"B2B 스타트업 창업자","why":"PLG에서 엔터프라이즈 세일즈로 전환할 때의 시행착오와 원칙이 담김"},{"who":"리더·임원","why":"조직 문화와 설득, 자기 강점을 살리는 리더십 관점을 얻을 수 있음"}],"normalizedAudience":["창업자·스타트업","지식노동자 일반"],"summary":"이 영상은 Ivan Zhao가 노션을 운영하며 얻은 창업과 리더십의 원칙을 중심으로, 기업을 하나의 사회적 게임이자 가치 시스템으로 바라보는 관점을 보여준다. 그는 CEO가 경쟁만 좇거나 약점 보완에 집착하기보다, 자신의 가치와 강점을 중심에 두고 조직을 설계해야 오래 갈 수 있다고 말한다. 특히 엔터프라이즈 세일즈는 새로 발명할 대상이 아니라 인간이 선호하는 기존 방식에 맞춰야 하며, 혁신은 제한된 몇 군데에만 집중해야 한다고 강조한다. 또한 회사 문화는 종교나 스포츠처럼 사람들에게 의미와 소속감을 주는 장치이며, 이를 의식적으로 설계해야 한다는 메시지가 강하다.","insights":["창업은 제품만이 아니라 인간관계와 권력의 게임이다.","성과를 내는 리더는 약점보다 강점을 증폭한다.","세일즈는 새로 발명하기보다 기존 인간 심리에 맞춰야 한다.","혁신은 모든 곳이 아니라 몇 군데에만 집중해야 한다.","회사 문화는 의미와 소속감을 주는 신념 시스템이다."],"keyClips":[{"clipId":"ill76IbVuM8:c5:11-20","startSegmentIndex":11,"endSegmentIndex":20,"startTime":3060.72,"endTime":3156.72,"durationSeconds":96,"preview":"창업은 사회적 게임","mustSee":false},{"clipId":"ill76IbVuM8:c5:21-25","startSegmentIndex":21,"endSegmentIndex":25,"startTime":3156.72,"endTime":3197.839,"durationSeconds":41.1,"preview":"강점에 베팅하라","mustSee":false},{"clipId":"ill76IbVuM8:c5:31-38","startSegmentIndex":31,"endSegmentIndex":38,"startTime":3226,"endTime":3323.839,"durationSeconds":97.8,"preview":"세일즈는 인간 본성","mustSee":false},{"clipId":"ill76IbVuM8:c5:43-50","startSegmentIndex":43,"endSegmentIndex":50,"startTime":3346.319,"endTime":3431.839,"durationSeconds":85.5,"preview":"세일즈팀을 살리는 법","mustSee":false},{"clipId":"ill76IbVuM8:c5:53-68","startSegmentIndex":53,"endSegmentIndex":68,"startTime":3443.839,"endTime":3530.16,"durationSeconds":86.3,"preview":"회사는 신념의 그릇","mustSee":false},{"clipId":"ill76IbVuM8:c5:72-81","startSegmentIndex":72,"endSegmentIndex":81,"startTime":3544.48,"endTime":3609.44,"durationSeconds":65,"preview":"자기다움이 곧 전략","mustSee":true}],"curatedSegments":[{"segmentIndex":42,"text":"Now the thing changed in the past three years since we're building with AI like we're one of the earlier um adopter of language modeling or product and you start think things are breaking building with this new technology the classic boundary between rows doesn't quite work the analogy I like to use back then it still is like building classic software is like engineer bridge if you can design it you usually can build it fairly predictable um like product manager talk to customers pass to designer pass to engineers right building with language model back then and somewhat still is it's like brewing beer >> you can't truly predict the things the underlying thing good analogy you cannot tell the east hey guys go towards that flavor profile more you can't do that right you sort of have to throw your best people in there >> see what the model see what technology gives you so it's not customer first it's more experiment with this technology first.","startTime":356.15999999999997,"endTime":375.68,"durationSeconds":20,"level":"C1","overallScore":10,"rationale":"AI 개발 본질을 비유로 풀어 통찰 최고급."},{"segmentIndex":12,"text":"A talent equal to this person's capability s experience times this person's um taste or value system times this person's um agency will right um what language model change is like just like Google everybody can access information language model allow everybody to be a pretty good writer and programmer so capability got normalized democratized and taste becomes still important like what's your value system what do you want to bring to the world which direction do you want to that you cannot change as easily and you will how hard do you work this you cannot change so we optimize for the latter to today >> okay >> that means in engineer science we're hired for much younger people okay >> internally we're call like IC early out of school IC >> this is the opposite of the way most of the CEOs I'm interviewing are going it's interesting >> I think more people are thrilled >> they say that like a junior engineer powered by the stuff's more productive but if you got a senior engineer that understands the whole system been there a while and they're pled they're like a 100x. >> Yes.","startTime":691.68,"endTime":751.12,"durationSeconds":59,"level":"C1","overallScore":9.8,"rationale":"AI 시대 인재 기준 변화 통찰이 깊음."},{"segmentIndex":54,"text":"you have to do that because like at the end of the day business are kind of like pathf finding entities right like we're in this thing called a market there's equilibrium for your company with the market with your shareholder with your company like we're just finding local optimas local maximums for different our niches when this new brand new ingredient got introduced into the market in this case language model doors are path that are opened up and we are Each company at different point in the market each you have different angle you have different niche you have to taking this internalize this new ingredient figure out which path got opened for you the truth is with the customer with yourself if you don't know how this can do you cannot find a new path I think you have to do something you have to feel this you feel the AI feel AGI >> I think you're right you use a word that I cringe at but I think is good called a lot of companies calcify as they get older.","startTime":2273.839,"endTime":2334.56,"durationSeconds":61,"level":"C2","overallScore":10,"rationale":"시장·탐색 비유와 표현 가치가 최고 수준."},{"segmentIndex":40,"text":"Um but that's the moment I sort of learned oh you need to delegate need to have introduced in professional manager management >> why who is telling you that >> it's a good question who te tell us some investors you didn't tell me that I don't think so uh >> it was conventional wisdom amongst the investor class >> I would say there's a pro and con for that like we sort of eyes resist that for a long time so we did not build a sales team in retrospect I should have started sales team earlier because I thought I can first principle the whole way like create new kind of PLG some kind of brand new motion that's a mistake um the other part is product marketing engineer those functions sort of I wouldn't call mistake but we're upping the traditional way of building it >> did you hire been there done that people in that phase >> we did >> and do you have any of them still >> um many of them are still with us yeah our CTO it's last three years before that there's another CTO during that phase.","startTime":285.199,"endTime":348.08,"durationSeconds":63,"level":"C1","overallScore":9.2,"rationale":"위임·채용 반성 통찰과 표현이 아주 강함."},{"segmentIndex":43,"text":"The analogy I like to use, we've been using somewhat is like before steel buildings cannot be higher than five six floors and New York City are largely six floor tall iron and stones and bricks >> after steel there's you information or way structure can go much higher since sometime language model plus software is that it's the steel for organizations.","startTime":375.68,"endTime":418,"durationSeconds":42,"level":"C1","overallScore":8.8,"rationale":"조직 변화를 강한 비유로 설명해 통찰 큼."},{"segmentIndex":46,"text":"Um designer is the most productive thing are designer and engineer and product people all just sit in the same bucket then work with evals work with experiences and figure out >> inside your company has one of those personas kind of dominated and the other ones falling aside or is there they all kind of do the same thing now >> we always started by like our DNA in the early days always blurry like we are one of the first to hire designer who can code I'm a designer who can code right so we build a company based um my image and my company my co-founder's image so those profile really shines designer who can co- engineer have strong product sense um PMs don't not afraid to roll up sleeve and try things like one of our heaviest token consumption person in the company is a pad for example >> those people really shines and we have quite a few of in the notion >> okay so you read the Dorsy stuff you read the Armstrong stuff my summary of it is they Think of like a big triangle or chart.","startTime":431.44,"endTime":491.599,"durationSeconds":60,"level":"C1","overallScore":9.2,"rationale":"AI 조직 설계 통찰과 실무 표현이 매우 강함."},{"segmentIndex":51,"text":"If some sense we're creating product for other company to do that >> but yourself >> the high premise is similar at least my interpretation of it it's so much knowledge work is paper pushing in the past it's really hard require software to push information from one person another but so much of a knowledge work is fuzzy so human need to be in the middle to pushing information from one to the other and turns out language model can do really good at two things one thing is to write the software to design the perfect pipes for your company to pushing information and decisions.","startTime":515.919,"endTime":548.88,"durationSeconds":33,"level":"C1","overallScore":9,"rationale":"지식노동 재구성 논리를 잘 설명한 핵심 문장."},{"segmentIndex":44,"text":"It's a community where as part of a community ecosystem uh or organization which is startup where is one of our most important communities um notion fans around the world and figure out how does this to move our market through those people right um that's the bucket of people >> and has the criteria changed sales marketing all the different other functions have you changed the way you think about the hire like most companies have a form when you interview someone has that form >> change we're actually in the middle of I just described engineer one right engineer designer it's the we changed two years ago yes um go to markets marketing would change no six monthsish ago sales were changing right now >> and when you hire a sales rep they have to be AI >> pil yes there we're actually changed our first interview no longer look at your resume build something for us send a notion link send something that you built we look at what you built How about compensation?","startTime":1008.48,"endTime":1070.16,"durationSeconds":62,"level":"C1","overallScore":9,"rationale":"채용 평가 방식 변화가 매우 구체적임."},{"segmentIndex":17,"text":"So um I would say the financial planning is still at least I find useful to give you a like you know you're on a treadmill you know how fast you're running right that's like a financial plan in my mind it's like oh am I running seven eight one nine what number that is but product strategy it's oh there's no freaking plan no plan uh because what changes the market the technology is so fast it's not in the six month it's not three months It's week by week.","startTime":1328.559,"endTime":1336.88,"durationSeconds":8,"level":"C1","overallScore":9,"rationale":"계획과 전략 차이를 통찰적으로 설명."},{"segmentIndex":28,"text":"you like what are you doing then you're not in the war mode right I think notion is for knowledge work which might have a different curve than coding products coding product you run frontier models usually the more the smarter the better um and knowledge work you can we already start to see this you sort of can settle with the second year the Chinese models the open way ones they're not super smart like a lot of this kind of paper pushing information in your company oh I spill coffee on the carpet can HR team come someone to tidy this up next week that doesn't require opus to file tickets right so that's a lot of problem we are best at solving at notion so that will have a different growth margin profile than >> yes >> the biggest product market fit today which is a coding agent >> yes okay you're kind of in my mind the king of refoundings >> you've done it I think twice at least Claude thinks you've done it twice.","startTime":1416.32,"endTime":1478.08,"durationSeconds":62,"level":"C1","overallScore":9,"rationale":"시장·원가·제품 차이를 깊게 풀어냄."},{"segmentIndex":43,"text":"um it's like AI writing product that has a boost but after that we've been pretty much want to build agent product in 2022 end of 2022 and that's a slo that took us a year and a half to really >> didn't really work back then >> didn't work at all like Simon >> I would say my problem and Simon's problem we might be living too much into the future y >> it bites you with new technology like we try everything built a model for us work openai finetuning or another just none of them work that will like a year and a half just go with no error and morale is definitely low only start to work a year and a half our revenue grow inflection this around the same time right when the AI product >> the underlying got better >> yeah it's like um but that was the that was a pretty painful period >> was that the most painful period in notion history for you >> different type of pain >> what was the most painful just when those two three early days pre-product market fit is despair I just like >> despair is that the word okay >> you don't know where it's coming from you don't know where to go right um when your growth rate low like during that period of time where we were try to rebuilding our AI foundation multiple times it's yeah that's not great um right now just everything on fire it's a different type of pain Nice.","startTime":2118.4,"endTime":2207.28,"durationSeconds":89,"level":"C1","overallScore":9,"rationale":"실패·절망·회복을 담은 고밀도 통찰."},{"segmentIndex":7,"text":"has never been harder to scale because like in every little micro segment if there's a little traction like there's hundred competitors two days later and the thing I've also noticed about the startup land is almost in every one of these verticals it's a duopoly there's like a one and a two and then 50 tied for third they're way off when you look back in time that the great companies were often founded in shitty times because people who are really grinders and people who really want to start a company and really have a vision didn't start in like 2022 2023 a terrible time to start in times like 2026 you get a lot of tourist entrepreneurs and so I've heard people say you know 2026 ventures is going to be crap even though the valuations are >> like crypto vibe energy >> yeah a little bit >> a little bit um I don't disagree market will do the thing market is kind of beautiful in that way >> yeah advice to founders of reasonable sized companies who are a little scared to refound You know, I I'm CEO of a 500 person company.","startTime":2441.359,"endTime":2502.16,"durationSeconds":61,"level":"C1","overallScore":9,"rationale":"창업·경쟁·시장에 대한 통찰이 풍부."},{"segmentIndex":46,"text":"I have to evolve a lot like I hate doing >> force yourself like how to work a significant other push you >> no I force myself okay um to lead the group of human you need to do one to many communications otherwise people don't trust you they want to hear from you >> writing is one mode which is like sometimes ling num but even more so is face to the all hands so for a while I try to delegate all hand to my co-founders to other exeacts no way I have to now at every all and I'm open the mic.","startTime":2768.8,"endTime":2799.52,"durationSeconds":31,"level":"C1","overallScore":9,"rationale":"리더십 소통 원칙과 실천이 모두 담김."},{"segmentIndex":14,"text":"like um power is this the CEO game is full of that game just like entertainment just like sports you have that like high school college lunch sessions right you watch that in real in the tech scene it also could be a pursuit of your personal values this is something I realized more in the past three four years it's like I need to be in equilibrium with my own value of what this company I want to build with that give me more gen more sustainable energy source.","startTime":3074.4,"endTime":3109.119,"durationSeconds":35,"level":"C1","overallScore":8.8,"rationale":"CEO 역할과 가치의 균형 통찰이 큼."},{"segmentIndex":32,"text":"If we because notion sales could start earlier but we want to first principle our way into it which is we're going to design our own system that doesn't work like again it's a reflection of human nature a lot of things you want to talk to a seller there's a lot of the reason the modern sales playbook has been around for twoish decades right so >> I think enterprise sales is like the last function like >> I agree with you it's like that you want to see a human you feel comfortable >> you don't want to have be a doctor from a robot?","startTime":3232.72,"endTime":3263.76,"durationSeconds":31,"level":"C1","overallScore":8.8,"rationale":"판매 본질을 인간 심리로 풀어 설명."},{"segmentIndex":38,"text":"May that's but that's the thing made hotspot right like this inbound >> that was the thing >> you should only have each company should only preserve your innovation point to few places go a couple places you cannot spread everywhere like otherwise you're spread too thin you're like you're trying to like reinvent the wheel well too many times we try to put our in innovation point onto sales back then just go classic sales it works um but you and make a lot more efficient today with a lot of tools we're building internally.","startTime":3290.72,"endTime":3323.839,"durationSeconds":33,"level":"C1","overallScore":9,"rationale":"혁신 자원 배분 원칙이 매우 선명함."},{"segmentIndex":14,"text":"the new way that Dorsy described and I didn't quite get into it with Ivan but I suspect it's similar is it's a circle and in the middle is all of the context in the AI system and initially humans are making all the decisions but over time as you give that kind of centralized AI system more context it gets smarter and you're feeding in context and you turn over more and more of the decisions to them I don't think it happens overnight I think it's gradual but it's an IT task to get it right you have to be legible.","startTime":3702,"endTime":3731.28,"durationSeconds":29,"level":"C1","overallScore":9,"rationale":"새 조직 모델 설명이 깊고 표현도 풍부함."},{"segmentIndex":9,"text":"After that, they got product market fit and it really took off. He did the same thing in 2023 around generative AI in an offsite down in Cancun and literally restarted the company and in my mind he's the canonical example of how a SAS company can move and become an AI company.","startTime":64,"endTime":82.799,"durationSeconds":19,"level":"C1","overallScore":8,"rationale":"전환 서사와 비즈니스 표현이 풍부함."},{"segmentIndex":39,"text":"Um so we have been very small from the get-go and we sort of taste the sweet of it because it's you're small you're profitable easier to raise money you're default alive and um we've been resisting growing team size and during co a lot of companies really blew up remember that right >> I'm sure you did >> we relatively yeah blew up >> you got to product market fit at the right time >> we grow to product market around the same time um there's a lot of eyes that you got to grow so we did grow um relative to other company still resistant to grow a lot uh in terms of headcount.","startTime":251.439,"endTime":285.199,"durationSeconds":34,"level":"C1","overallScore":8.2,"rationale":"성장 전략 통찰과 실무 표현이 매우 풍부."},{"segmentIndex":49,"text":"Basically stick AI in the middle and start delegating more and more over time and letting the system make decisions and feeding it context in good ways.","startTime":499.36,"endTime":506.16,"durationSeconds":7,"level":"C1","overallScore":8,"rationale":"AI 중심 조직 원리를 압축해 표현함."}],"generatedAt":"2026-06-24T23:45:27.090Z","keyClipsTotalSec":1503},{"videoId":"ill76IbVuM8","chunkIndex":6,"totalChunks":7,"title":"Notion’s Ivan Zhao: The Refounder — Part 7 of 7","thumbnail":"https://i.ytimg.com/vi/ill76IbVuM8/maxresdefault.jpg","duration":3786,"uploader":"Sequoia Capital","youtubeUrl":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ill76IbVuM8","keywords":["startup","leadership","ai","organization-design","management","business","strategy","refounding","company-building"],"normalizedKeywords":["리더십·매니지먼트","비즈니스·전략","기술 트렌드"],"targetAudience":[{"who":"창업자","why":"회사를 다시 설계하는 'refounding' 관점을 얻을 수 있음"},{"who":"경영자","why":"AI 시대에 맞는 조직 운영과 의사결정 구조를 고민하게 됨"},{"who":"프로덕트 리더","why":"빠른 실험과 짧은 계획 주기라는 운영 원리를 참고할 수 있음"}],"normalizedAudience":["창업자·스타트업","프로덕트 매니저·기획자","지식노동자 일반"],"summary":"이 영상은 Notion의 Ivan Zhao를 'refounder'로 보며, 기존 회사를 단순히 개선하는 수준이 아니라 아예 다시 세팅하는 관점의 중요성을 강조한다. 화자는 이런 재창업(refounding)이 단기적으로는 숫자가 나빠지고 고통스럽더라도, 정체된 회사에서는 필요한 선택일 수 있다고 말한다. 또한 Jack Dorsey와 Ivan Zhao, 그리고 여러 AI 스타트업이 보여주는 공통점을 바탕으로, AI 네이티브 시대에는 기존의 삼각형 조직보다 더 중앙화된 context 기반 운영 방식이 등장하고 있다고 주장한다.\n\n핵심은 AI에 더 많은 맥락을 넣어 의사결정을 점점 자동화하고, 인간은 더 적은 인원으로 더 빠르게 움직이는 조직을 만드는 것이다. 이 방식은 정보 왜곡을 줄이고 계획 주기를 짧게 만들며, 모든 일이 더 많은 one-way door가 아니라 two-way door처럼 다루어지게 한다. 화자는 이것이 앞으로의 새로운 CEO 플레이북이 될 수 있다고 보고, 아직 실험 초기지만 매우 중요한 변화라고 정리한다.","insights":["리포메이션은 단기 악화를 감수해야 성립한다.","정체된 회사는 내부에서 새 회사를 만드는 방식이 유효하다.","AI 시대의 조직은 계층보다 맥락 중심으로 재설계된다.","맥락이 충분히 쌓이면 의사결정의 상당 부분을 자동화할 수 있다.","작은 인원과 짧은 계획 주기가 속도의 핵심이다."],"keyClips":[{"clipId":"ill76IbVuM8:c6:1-4","startSegmentIndex":1,"endSegmentIndex":4,"startTime":3602.789,"endTime":3632.96,"durationSeconds":30.2,"preview":"리포밍의 대가","mustSee":false},{"clipId":"ill76IbVuM8:c6:5-9","startSegmentIndex":5,"endSegmentIndex":9,"startTime":3632.96,"endTime":3664.64,"durationSeconds":31.7,"preview":"새로운 경영법","mustSee":false},{"clipId":"ill76IbVuM8:c6:10-16","startSegmentIndex":10,"endSegmentIndex":16,"startTime":3664.64,"endTime":3745.44,"durationSeconds":80.8,"preview":"조직은 원형으로","mustSee":true},{"clipId":"ill76IbVuM8:c6:17-20","startSegmentIndex":17,"endSegmentIndex":20,"startTime":3745.44,"endTime":3768.079,"durationSeconds":22.6,"preview":"속도의 원천","mustSee":true}],"curatedSegments":[{"segmentIndex":42,"text":"Now the thing changed in the past three years since we're building with AI like we're one of the earlier um adopter of language modeling or product and you start think things are breaking building with this new technology the classic boundary between rows doesn't quite work the analogy I like to use back then it still is like building classic software is like engineer bridge if you can design it you usually can build it fairly predictable um like product manager talk to customers pass to designer pass to engineers right building with language model back then and somewhat still is it's like brewing beer >> you can't truly predict the things the underlying thing good analogy you cannot tell the east hey guys go towards that flavor profile more you can't do that right you sort of have to throw your best people in there >> see what the model see what technology gives you so it's not customer first it's more experiment with this technology first.","startTime":356.15999999999997,"endTime":375.68,"durationSeconds":20,"level":"C1","overallScore":10,"rationale":"AI 개발 본질을 비유로 풀어 통찰 최고급."},{"segmentIndex":12,"text":"A talent equal to this person's capability s experience times this person's um taste or value system times this person's um agency will right um what language model change is like just like Google everybody can access information language model allow everybody to be a pretty good writer and programmer so capability got normalized democratized and taste becomes still important like what's your value system what do you want to bring to the world which direction do you want to that you cannot change as easily and you will how hard do you work this you cannot change so we optimize for the latter to today >> okay >> that means in engineer science we're hired for much younger people okay >> internally we're call like IC early out of school IC >> this is the opposite of the way most of the CEOs I'm interviewing are going it's interesting >> I think more people are thrilled >> they say that like a junior engineer powered by the stuff's more productive but if you got a senior engineer that understands the whole system been there a while and they're pled they're like a 100x. >> Yes.","startTime":691.68,"endTime":751.12,"durationSeconds":59,"level":"C1","overallScore":9.8,"rationale":"AI 시대 인재 기준 변화 통찰이 깊음."},{"segmentIndex":54,"text":"you have to do that because like at the end of the day business are kind of like pathf finding entities right like we're in this thing called a market there's equilibrium for your company with the market with your shareholder with your company like we're just finding local optimas local maximums for different our niches when this new brand new ingredient got introduced into the market in this case language model doors are path that are opened up and we are Each company at different point in the market each you have different angle you have different niche you have to taking this internalize this new ingredient figure out which path got opened for you the truth is with the customer with yourself if you don't know how this can do you cannot find a new path I think you have to do something you have to feel this you feel the AI feel AGI >> I think you're right you use a word that I cringe at but I think is good called a lot of companies calcify as they get older.","startTime":2273.839,"endTime":2334.56,"durationSeconds":61,"level":"C2","overallScore":10,"rationale":"시장·탐색 비유와 표현 가치가 최고 수준."},{"segmentIndex":40,"text":"Um but that's the moment I sort of learned oh you need to delegate need to have introduced in professional manager management >> why who is telling you that >> it's a good question who te tell us some investors you didn't tell me that I don't think so uh >> it was conventional wisdom amongst the investor class >> I would say there's a pro and con for that like we sort of eyes resist that for a long time so we did not build a sales team in retrospect I should have started sales team earlier because I thought I can first principle the whole way like create new kind of PLG some kind of brand new motion that's a mistake um the other part is product marketing engineer those functions sort of I wouldn't call mistake but we're upping the traditional way of building it >> did you hire been there done that people in that phase >> we did >> and do you have any of them still >> um many of them are still with us yeah our CTO it's last three years before that there's another CTO during that phase.","startTime":285.199,"endTime":348.08,"durationSeconds":63,"level":"C1","overallScore":9.2,"rationale":"위임·채용 반성 통찰과 표현이 아주 강함."},{"segmentIndex":43,"text":"The analogy I like to use, we've been using somewhat is like before steel buildings cannot be higher than five six floors and New York City are largely six floor tall iron and stones and bricks >> after steel there's you information or way structure can go much higher since sometime language model plus software is that it's the steel for organizations.","startTime":375.68,"endTime":418,"durationSeconds":42,"level":"C1","overallScore":8.8,"rationale":"조직 변화를 강한 비유로 설명해 통찰 큼."},{"segmentIndex":46,"text":"Um designer is the most productive thing are designer and engineer and product people all just sit in the same bucket then work with evals work with experiences and figure out >> inside your company has one of those personas kind of dominated and the other ones falling aside or is there they all kind of do the same thing now >> we always started by like our DNA in the early days always blurry like we are one of the first to hire designer who can code I'm a designer who can code right so we build a company based um my image and my company my co-founder's image so those profile really shines designer who can co- engineer have strong product sense um PMs don't not afraid to roll up sleeve and try things like one of our heaviest token consumption person in the company is a pad for example >> those people really shines and we have quite a few of in the notion >> okay so you read the Dorsy stuff you read the Armstrong stuff my summary of it is they Think of like a big triangle or chart.","startTime":431.44,"endTime":491.599,"durationSeconds":60,"level":"C1","overallScore":9.2,"rationale":"AI 조직 설계 통찰과 실무 표현이 매우 강함."},{"segmentIndex":51,"text":"If some sense we're creating product for other company to do that >> but yourself >> the high premise is similar at least my interpretation of it it's so much knowledge work is paper pushing in the past it's really hard require software to push information from one person another but so much of a knowledge work is fuzzy so human need to be in the middle to pushing information from one to the other and turns out language model can do really good at two things one thing is to write the software to design the perfect pipes for your company to pushing information and decisions.","startTime":515.919,"endTime":548.88,"durationSeconds":33,"level":"C1","overallScore":9,"rationale":"지식노동 재구성 논리를 잘 설명한 핵심 문장."},{"segmentIndex":44,"text":"It's a community where as part of a community ecosystem uh or organization which is startup where is one of our most important communities um notion fans around the world and figure out how does this to move our market through those people right um that's the bucket of people >> and has the criteria changed sales marketing all the different other functions have you changed the way you think about the hire like most companies have a form when you interview someone has that form >> change we're actually in the middle of I just described engineer one right engineer designer it's the we changed two years ago yes um go to markets marketing would change no six monthsish ago sales were changing right now >> and when you hire a sales rep they have to be AI >> pil yes there we're actually changed our first interview no longer look at your resume build something for us send a notion link send something that you built we look at what you built How about compensation?","startTime":1008.48,"endTime":1070.16,"durationSeconds":62,"level":"C1","overallScore":9,"rationale":"채용 평가 방식 변화가 매우 구체적임."},{"segmentIndex":17,"text":"So um I would say the financial planning is still at least I find useful to give you a like you know you're on a treadmill you know how fast you're running right that's like a financial plan in my mind it's like oh am I running seven eight one nine what number that is but product strategy it's oh there's no freaking plan no plan uh because what changes the market the technology is so fast it's not in the six month it's not three months It's week by week.","startTime":1328.559,"endTime":1336.88,"durationSeconds":8,"level":"C1","overallScore":9,"rationale":"계획과 전략 차이를 통찰적으로 설명."},{"segmentIndex":28,"text":"you like what are you doing then you're not in the war mode right I think notion is for knowledge work which might have a different curve than coding products coding product you run frontier models usually the more the smarter the better um and knowledge work you can we already start to see this you sort of can settle with the second year the Chinese models the open way ones they're not super smart like a lot of this kind of paper pushing information in your company oh I spill coffee on the carpet can HR team come someone to tidy this up next week that doesn't require opus to file tickets right so that's a lot of problem we are best at solving at notion so that will have a different growth margin profile than >> yes >> the biggest product market fit today which is a coding agent >> yes okay you're kind of in my mind the king of refoundings >> you've done it I think twice at least Claude thinks you've done it twice.","startTime":1416.32,"endTime":1478.08,"durationSeconds":62,"level":"C1","overallScore":9,"rationale":"시장·원가·제품 차이를 깊게 풀어냄."},{"segmentIndex":43,"text":"um it's like AI writing product that has a boost but after that we've been pretty much want to build agent product in 2022 end of 2022 and that's a slo that took us a year and a half to really >> didn't really work back then >> didn't work at all like Simon >> I would say my problem and Simon's problem we might be living too much into the future y >> it bites you with new technology like we try everything built a model for us work openai finetuning or another just none of them work that will like a year and a half just go with no error and morale is definitely low only start to work a year and a half our revenue grow inflection this around the same time right when the AI product >> the underlying got better >> yeah it's like um but that was the that was a pretty painful period >> was that the most painful period in notion history for you >> different type of pain >> what was the most painful just when those two three early days pre-product market fit is despair I just like >> despair is that the word okay >> you don't know where it's coming from you don't know where to go right um when your growth rate low like during that period of time where we were try to rebuilding our AI foundation multiple times it's yeah that's not great um right now just everything on fire it's a different type of pain Nice.","startTime":2118.4,"endTime":2207.28,"durationSeconds":89,"level":"C1","overallScore":9,"rationale":"실패·절망·회복을 담은 고밀도 통찰."},{"segmentIndex":7,"text":"has never been harder to scale because like in every little micro segment if there's a little traction like there's hundred competitors two days later and the thing I've also noticed about the startup land is almost in every one of these verticals it's a duopoly there's like a one and a two and then 50 tied for third they're way off when you look back in time that the great companies were often founded in shitty times because people who are really grinders and people who really want to start a company and really have a vision didn't start in like 2022 2023 a terrible time to start in times like 2026 you get a lot of tourist entrepreneurs and so I've heard people say you know 2026 ventures is going to be crap even though the valuations are >> like crypto vibe energy >> yeah a little bit >> a little bit um I don't disagree market will do the thing market is kind of beautiful in that way >> yeah advice to founders of reasonable sized companies who are a little scared to refound You know, I I'm CEO of a 500 person company.","startTime":2441.359,"endTime":2502.16,"durationSeconds":61,"level":"C1","overallScore":9,"rationale":"창업·경쟁·시장에 대한 통찰이 풍부."},{"segmentIndex":46,"text":"I have to evolve a lot like I hate doing >> force yourself like how to work a significant other push you >> no I force myself okay um to lead the group of human you need to do one to many communications otherwise people don't trust you they want to hear from you >> writing is one mode which is like sometimes ling num but even more so is face to the all hands so for a while I try to delegate all hand to my co-founders to other exeacts no way I have to now at every all and I'm open the mic.","startTime":2768.8,"endTime":2799.52,"durationSeconds":31,"level":"C1","overallScore":9,"rationale":"리더십 소통 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매우 선명함."},{"segmentIndex":14,"text":"the new way that Dorsy described and I didn't quite get into it with Ivan but I suspect it's similar is it's a circle and in the middle is all of the context in the AI system and initially humans are making all the decisions but over time as you give that kind of centralized AI system more context it gets smarter and you're feeding in context and you turn over more and more of the decisions to them I don't think it happens overnight I think it's gradual but it's an IT task to get it right you have to be legible.","startTime":3702,"endTime":3731.28,"durationSeconds":29,"level":"C1","overallScore":9,"rationale":"새 조직 모델 설명이 깊고 표현도 풍부함."},{"segmentIndex":9,"text":"After that, they got product market fit and it really took off. He did the same thing in 2023 around generative AI in an offsite down in Cancun and literally restarted the company and in my mind he's the canonical example of how a SAS company can move and become an AI company.","startTime":64,"endTime":82.799,"durationSeconds":19,"level":"C1","overallScore":8,"rationale":"전환 서사와 비즈니스 표현이 풍부함."},{"segmentIndex":39,"text":"Um so we have been very small from the get-go and we sort of taste the sweet of it because it's you're small you're profitable easier to raise money you're default alive and um we've been resisting growing team size and during co a lot of companies really blew up remember that right >> I'm sure you did >> we relatively yeah blew up >> you got to product market fit at the right time >> we grow to product market around the same time um there's a lot of eyes that you got to grow so we did grow um relative to other company still resistant to grow a lot uh in terms of headcount.","startTime":251.439,"endTime":285.199,"durationSeconds":34,"level":"C1","overallScore":8.2,"rationale":"성장 전략 통찰과 실무 표현이 매우 풍부."},{"segmentIndex":49,"text":"Basically stick AI in the middle and start delegating more and more over time and letting the system make decisions and feeding it context in good ways.","startTime":499.36,"endTime":506.16,"durationSeconds":7,"level":"C1","overallScore":8,"rationale":"AI 중심 조직 원리를 압축해 표현함."}],"generatedAt":"2026-06-24T23:45:51.182Z","keyClipsTotalSec":1503}]}